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Mar 25th, 2012
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Real 10mm load data? #7430738
02/11/19 01:54 PM
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Considering a 10mm, but am having trouble with justifying it. Looking for published data with 180s @1400fps. All i am finding is stuff that is only about 50-75 foot faster than a 40, and i ain't buying a new gun for that small a perfromance gap. I now load 180@1225 in a 40 with published data off of hodgons website. So is there some 10mm data out there that is really much better, or is the 10 just am overhyped 40? Please note hodgdon data in 40 is for a 4" barrel and for the 10it is a 5" barrel. I get ~75fps improvement in velocity in my 5" 40. So anything out there? Also anything that really outpaces 155s or 135s in the 40 off of the hodgdon site? Dont forget to add the 75 fps when comparing.

Thanks

Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7430779
02/11/19 02:23 PM
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Not my personal data, but a 20-yard comparison between .40S&W and 10mm with standard and "premium" ammo. All ammo is 180 train. This is from a Paul Harrel video. I have a couple .40's and have been toying with the 10mm idea, so I jotted down the end results, because I'm a note-taker. These are chrono results at 20 yards.

Federal Premium JHP: .40S&W 1016fps, 10mm 1021fps. +5

Federal American Eagle FMJ: .40S&W 1029fps, 10mm 1047fps +18

Rem G&W Box FMJ: .40S&W 959fps, 10mm 1122fps. +163!!!

It was a better test than these truncated results reveal, but I found it interesting that the greatest benefit in velocity was with the standard G&W box Remington, while the "premium" ammo only gave a 5fps advantage to the 10mm? I don't reload for pistols, just rifle, but I can see getting into it if I pick up a 10mm. I think as far as standard factory ammo that you'd find attached any gun shop this is pretty close to an "apples to apples" comparison. Mr. Harrell also touched on the price difference for each when buying the .40 vs. 10mm. Not a lot of extra hang for the extra doll hairs.

I hope this helps. You'll probably get a lot more useful info from others.

Last edited by Slow Drifter; 02/11/19 02:26 PM. Reason: additional info

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Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: Slow Drifter] #7430811
02/11/19 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Slow Drifter
Not my personal data, but a 20-yard comparison between .40S&W and 10mm with standard and "premium" ammo. All ammo is 180 train. This is from a Paul Harrel video. I have a couple .40's and have been toying with the 10mm idea, so I jotted down the end results, because I'm a note-taker. These are chrono results at 20 yards.

Federal Premium JHP: .40S&W 1016fps, 10mm 1021fps. +5

Federal American Eagle FMJ: .40S&W 1029fps, 10mm 1047fps +18

Rem G&W Box FMJ: .40S&W 959fps, 10mm 1122fps. +163!!!

It was a better test than these truncated results reveal, but I found it interesting that the greatest benefit in velocity was with the standard G&W box Remington, while the "premium" ammo only gave a 5fps advantage to the 10mm? I don't reload for pistols, just rifle, but I can see getting into it if I pick up a 10mm. I think as far as standard factory ammo that you'd find attached any gun shop this is pretty close to an "apples to apples" comparison. Mr. Harrell also touched on the price difference for each when buying the .40 vs. 10mm. Not a lot of extra hang for the extra doll hairs.

I hope this helps. You'll probably get a lot more useful info from others.



See that is the issue, with book loads, my 40 beats all those 10mm loads. I reload for everything and have not found data yet that shows a 10 being a major improvement. Even the boutique producers dont seem to do much better. But i have at least heard of 180s@1400 out of a 10, and that does peak my interest. My results were chronoed, not just conjecture either.

Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7430862
02/11/19 03:31 PM
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So, you get better performance out of .40 S&W, with hand loads, over mass produced ammo.

Why wouldn't you get better performance out of 10mm handloads.

Chad has his loaded pretty stout, but safe. It is proprietary information, so I won't share the load, but I can say, it ain't no .40 S&W.



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Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7430866
02/11/19 03:35 PM
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You won't find any 10mm load data for 180's at 1400 fps. If you do, it will certainly be a +P+ load data in a 5" barrel. Most 180's will max out about 1250-1280 fps with standard pressures. Depending on your pistol, if you load +P ammo, you induce FTF and FTE problems, plus accuracy issues. This is what I saw in my testing. 75 fps seems high for 1" of barrel. When I tested my 10mm data from a G29 to a G20, I didn't see this much gain/loss.

There is some data on the 40 cal loaded with some slow burning pistol powder to get the speeds up. I have loaded and tried these, and it's also a very warm load in the 40. Due to heavy recoil and some initial pressure I saw, I didn't like those loads either. Yes, you can get some fast speeds with a 40 cal with some slower burning powder. But it shoots much better with standard pistol powders, not the slower burning one's for the added speed.

I'm a HUGE 10mm fan, and the main reason I load 10mm and offer it for sale is because of the lack of good quality factory 10mm ammo on the market. Most factory ammo is watered down 40 cal. Some other 10mm ammo is +P+ and is unsafe for standard Glocks and other 10mm pistols. I load my ammo right at the standard max where the 10mm still shoots good and feeds perfect. Pound for pound, the 10mm should be running about 150-200 fps faster than the 40 cal with the same bullet and barrel length. The 10mm holds about 2-4 grains more powder. More powder = more speed and energy. If you are getting higher speeds than advertised with more powder, then you will certainly be running hotter +P loads.


https://dallasreloads.com/product-category/pistol-ammo/10mm-auto/



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Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: FiremanJG] #7430874
02/11/19 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
So, you get better performance out of .40 S&W, with hand loads, over mass produced ammo.

Why wouldn't you get better performance out of 10mm handloads.

Chad has his loaded pretty stout, but safe. It is proprietary information, so I won't share the load, but I can say, it ain't no .40 S&W.


You are missing the point, i load right out of a book. That same book says the 10mm only gains me 60 fps with a 180 grain bullet. Which is right in line with what Chad says his chrono at. If all i am getting is 60 fps, i will stick with the 40, that is the reason for the search for more data

Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: ChadTRG42] #7430881
02/11/19 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
You won't find any 10mm load data for 180's at 1400 fps. If you do, it will certainly be a +P+ load data in a 5" barrel. Most 180's will max out about 1250-1280 fps with standard pressures. Depending on your pistol, if you load +P ammo, you induce FTF and FTE problems, plus accuracy issues. This is what I saw in my testing. 75 fps seems high for 1" of barrel. When I tested my 10mm data from a G29 to a G20, I didn't see this much gain/loss.

There is some data on the 40 cal loaded with some slow burning pistol powder to get the speeds up. I have loaded and tried these, and it's also a very warm load in the 40. Due to heavy recoil and some initial pressure I saw, I didn't like those loads either. Yes, you can get some fast speeds with a 40 cal with some slower burning powder. But it shoots much better with standard pistol powders, not the slower burning one's for the added speed.

I'm a HUGE 10mm fan, and the main reason I load 10mm and offer it for sale is because of the lack of good quality factory 10mm ammo on the market. Most factory ammo is watered down 40 cal. Some other 10mm ammo is +P+ and is unsafe for standard Glocks and other 10mm pistols. I load my ammo right at the standard max where the 10mm still shoots good and feeds perfect. Pound for pound, the 10mm should be running about 150-200 fps faster than the 40 cal with the same bullet and barrel length. The 10mm holds about 2-4 grains more powder. More powder = more speed and energy. If you are getting higher speeds than advertised with more powder, then you will certainly be running hotter +P loads.


https://dallasreloads.com/product-category/pistol-ammo/10mm-auto/


No, my higher speeds are from barrel length.
Hodgdon says 1150 with a 180 out of a 4" gun for the 40. My speeds were 1050 out of a xd subcompact ~3" barrel, right on the money of 1150 out of a 4" barrel, and 1225 out of a 5"gun. So a 10 doing 1250-1280 out of a 5" gun (which is what hodgdon says it does) seems kinda pointless to me. So if ~1400fps is out of reach, i will just stick with the 40

Last edited by RJH1; 02/11/19 03:51 PM.
Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7430899
02/11/19 04:08 PM
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That's the difference between "book data" that is used as a reference and field proven data with actual load testing. I can't tell you how often I see incorrect speeds listed with "book data" compared to my actual field data. Think about it. The 10mm and 40 cal are both rated at about the same pressure point, about 35,000 psi. If both rounds are rated near the same pressure point, but one holds 2-4 grains more powder, which do you think will shoot the same weight bullet faster at the same pressure? Obviously the bigger case, the 10mm. Looking at "book data", the 40 cal does seem to close in on the speed difference of the 10mm. The velocity on the 40 cal I saw was not what Hodgdon listed and was less. I tested it out of a G35, which had an even longer barrel than the 4". You won't get the increased speeds of the 40 cal unless you are up over max and running +P loads.

If you are comfortable with hot rodding the 40 cal to the higher speeds, then go for it. But pound for pound, pressure for pressure, the 10mm will certainly out run the 40 cal by about 150-200 fps with the same bullet and same pressures. You can NOT get miracle speeds unless you raise your pressure. Pressure = speed. Higher than normal speed = +P loads. It's that simple.



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Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: ChadTRG42] #7430911
02/11/19 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
That's the difference between "book data" that is used as a reference and field proven data with actual load testing. I can't tell you how often I see incorrect speeds listed with "book data" compared to my actual field data. Think about it. The 10mm and 40 cal are both rated at about the same pressure point, about 35,000 psi. If both rounds are rated near the same pressure point, but one holds 2-4 grains more powder, which do you think will shoot the same weight bullet faster at the same pressure? Obviously the bigger case, the 10mm. Looking at "book data", the 40 cal does seem to close in on the speed difference of the 10mm. The velocity on the 40 cal I saw was not what Hodgdon listed and was less. I tested it out of a G35, which had an even longer barrel than the 4". You won't get the increased speeds of the 40 cal unless you are up over max and running +P loads.

If you are comfortable with hot rodding the 40 cal to the higher speeds, then go for it. But pound for pound, pressure for pressure, the 10mm will certainly out run the 40 cal by about 150-200 fps with the same bullet and same pressures. You can NOT get miracle speeds unless you raise your pressure. Pressure = speed. Higher than normal speed = +P loads. It's that simple.



Straight off the hodgdon website: 40 s and w 180 xtp 8 grains longshot 1159fps 4"barrel . I load 7.9 and with field testing my numbers were right in line with theirs. With the same load in a 5" gun i got 1225. So you might want to relook at the hodgdon website.

Obviously the larger case at the same pressure should and does yield more velocity, i was just hoping for more than 60 fps. 150-200 fps more than my 40 would pit me right at the 1400fps i was hoping for

Last edited by RJH1; 02/11/19 04:20 PM.
Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7430917
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Also i have seen g35s that were considerably slower than other 40 calibers. I figured it was just that gun, but maybe there is a trend there

Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7430945
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I'm very familiar with the Hodgdon Longshot powder load data in the 40. It seems you have your answer.



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Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: ChadTRG42] #7430965
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
I'm very familiar with the Hodgdon Longshot powder load data in the 40. It seems you have your answer.


I am afraid you may be right. I know that I read or heard somewhere that there were 10mm 180 grain loads doing 1400, but the most i am finding now are 1300fps. There seems to be a bigger gap with the 155s, but i am less interested in that bullet. Looks like the 10 just is not a big enough step up over the 40 with 180s to be worth while. I had high hopes and had just become really interested in this round.

And for anyone interested the 40 load i used was tested in 4 guns and had no issues in any of them. Here is their velocitys and such:
Xdsubcompact 1050fps
Xd 1150fps
Xdm 5.25 1215 fps
Para 1911 1225 fps

Yep the 5" para was faster than the xdm 525.

Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7431009
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If running warm loads or P+ loads, is a stronger poundage recoil spring needed so the slide wont jam into the frame?

Last edited by TackDriver; 02/11/19 05:42 PM.
Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: TackDriver] #7431024
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Last edited by RJH1; 02/11/19 05:53 PM.
Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7431029
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Originally Posted by TackDriver
If running warm loads or P+ loads, is a stronger poundage recoil spring needed so the slide wont jam into the frame?


If i was going to shoot a steady diet of this load i probably would. But 98percent of my 40 are on the low end of factory power and i change my springs every 8-10000 rounds, so i don't sweat it. But i would probably go to a 20 or 22 pounder in my xdm if this was all i was shooting. Stock for it is 18. Also my loads are not +P, just full power standard pressure.

Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: RJH1] #7431077
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When I shot the warm 40 loads at the top speeds, it totally changed the recoil impulse and how the gun cycled and felt. The load was certainly warmer and faster. But I could feel the increased recoil of the slide hitting the back of the frame, even at "safe" powder levels. And I did have 2 stove pipes. And in my little Kahr PM40, it was brutal. The loads on paper were safe, but the problems I saw and increased recoil in a little 40 cal pistol were not worth it to me. Having a 40 cal cycle 100% while keeping the pistol more shootable were my concerns. Can the 40 cal run faster than other traditional 40 cal loads- yes. Is it worth it? I guess that's up to the shooter. It is not worth it for me for the increased recoil, beating up on the firearm and less reliability. A 40 cal load made with a standard pistol powder at normal velocities will run like a sewing machine. That's the blessing of reloading. You can load your ammo how YOU want it.



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Re: Real 10mm load data? [Re: ChadTRG42] #7431098
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That is true. Out of the xd sub and a smith sheild, these loads are fairly unpleasant. Out of the fullsize guns and down to an xdm 3.8 compact they are not bad. We have had no failures of any kind with them however, so that is good.

Was it the kahr or something else that was stovepiping with the hotter loads?

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