FiremanJG "Said it, wrote it till I'm blue in the face; both are equally good at elevation correction. Mil shines for wind correction. So easy, I show a shooter his Mil holds all the way down the range one time, then call his wind speed, and ask what he's supposed to hold. We go from there. Three digits to manage with MOA, one digit to manage with Mil."

So, what we need is a scope with MOA elevation and MIL windage?

Sorry, couldn't resist

What the heck is TAF?

Very Tactical

LOL!! Very politically correct!

Got it. Thanks!

40 years ago 'Tactical as all get-out!'

That's more in line with my old school redneck vernacular, but I get that AF is more in line with the parlance of our current time. I guess I need to try to be more hip and start using it. Not sure TAF is a compliment I want to strive to attain although I do have some level of respect for JG for attaining the moniker.

Judd said that to me to poke me in the ribs, because I don't go by that. We pick on Kyle that he is.

But, hey, if being very familiar and comfortable with a Mil reticle gets me that, whatever.

FiremanJG "Said it

then its got to be the only way

What are we, two years now and you still haven't built a .223? Even after asking and getting the same good answers five times. At least I make a decision and run with it.

I'm workin on it

Frrom FiremanG:

Clicks don't matter with a labeled turret, ever. If I'm going a thousand yards with my 7 Rem Mag today, I am not going to count audible clicks for 73 clicks. I am going to dial to 7.3 and be done with it.


Yep
And when you learn to “just thinking in inches” when going to mil..

It really so stupidly easy, repeatable and consistent.

Yeah... I’ve never had a single impact called in MOA or Mil or anything other than inches or feet.

And this one I really don’t understand: if the shooter is shooting at a plate at 400 yards and misses left by 12”, how is it any less of a guess if the spotter calls 3 MOA or “aww bout a foot” or whatever a 12” gap at 400 yards is in mils?

No one can call a miss in inches or feet, and be absolutely correct, they are merely guessing. Just like the guy that thinks he killed a deer at a guessed 500 yards, and it was really 250.

With a Mil or MOA reticle, there is no guess, the correction called is exactly correct, no guess whatsoever. Yesterday a 21 year old that had never ever used a Mil scope, ended the day hitting a 4" plate at 800 yards. When he would miss, I would say "next shot hold point 5 Mil, right". I saw where the bullet splashed, with the Mil reticle in my spotting scope, told him the correction, and he made the proper correction with the Mil reticle in his rifle scope. There is not a reticle in the world that can tell us how many inches he was off at 800 yards. Mil and MOA are angular, not linear.

[/quote]

No one can call a miss in inches or feet, and be absolutely correct, they are merely guessing. Just like the guy that thinks he killed a deer at a guessed 500 yards, and it was really 250.

With a Mil or MOA reticle, there is no guess, the correction called is exactly correct, no guess whatsoever. Yesterday a 21 year old that had never ever used a Mil scope, ended the day hitting a 4" plate at 800 yards. When he would miss, I would say "next shot hold point 5 Mil, right". I saw where the bullet splashed, with the Mil reticle in my spotting scope, told him the correction, and he made the proper correction with the Mil reticle in his rifle scope. There is not a reticle in the world that can tell us how many inches he was off at 800 yards. Mil and MOA are angular, not linear.[/quote]

This makes much more sense. We have never had that since we’re dumb 3 gunners.

TC, where do you shoot 3g?
I have been out of if for a few years, going to do some matches this year around Austin, Marble Falls, Burnett.

I have never shot past 500 on a 3 gun course with most of it being less than that. 3g is the only time I use a BDC type reticle with capped windage and elevation. I don't think people should be helping the shooter in competition with calls on misses.. you should be able to spot your own impacts in the scope and using the reticle call and make your own corrections.

Problem is, I've never seen a spotting scope in the field that has a MIL/MOA reticle. Unless the spotter has one, calling correction in MIL/MOA is a wild guess too.

Abilene, cresson.

Sometimes I would agree with the no spotting. But if coaching is allowed (it always was at Rocky Mountain and at NTMG) I’ll take it. Sometimes impacts are hard to see with a 6x scope, bouncing rifle, and heavy breathing.

Vortex Razor spotting scope.
Swarovski
Bushnell
Leupold MK 4 spotter

^^All can be had with a reticle in the spotter.


I have the Gen1 Razor, fixed 30X with Mil reticle. Works like a champ.

No one can call a miss in inches or feet, and be absolutely correct, they are merely guessing. Just like the guy that thinks he killed a deer at a guessed 500 yards, and it was really 250.

With a Mil or MOA reticle, there is no guess, the correction called is exactly correct, no guess whatsoever. Yesterday a 21 year old that had never ever used a Mil scope, ended the day hitting a 4" plate at 800 yards. When he would miss, I would say "next shot hold point 5 Mil, right". I saw where the bullet splashed, with the Mil reticle in my spotting scope, told him the correction, and he made the proper correction with the Mil reticle in his rifle scope. There is not a reticle in the world that can tell us how many inches he was off at 800 yards. Mil and MOA are angular, not linear.[/quote]

This makes much more sense. We have never had that since we’re dumb 3 gunners. [/quote]


Three gun is not dumb, it's just a different discipline. I couldn't just show up and hang with yall, with the AR I have.

Sorry, but that's not 100% correct. Most of the time I'm a range officer, I have a spotting scope with a MIL reticle in it. It is VERY common on the range. As an RO, or even more so as a shooter, when you miss, you simply place your reticle over the spot you missed, use reticle to measure the EXACT amount you missed off target by, make your correction and re-send the round. I do this in about 2 seconds time for a quick follow up shot before the wind makes a change. Also, if you know the exact target size you are shooting at, and can see the miss, you can calculate exactly how far off target you are. If it's 3 gun, you kind of do the same thing, only you hold the opposite direction of the miss until you get your hit.


Once you learn how to properly use a reticle (either moa or mil), you will not use inches as a call.

Below is the reticle I prefer to use, the Nightforce MLR. It's the easiest reticle (for me) to quickly make corrections and use the reticle as a ruler when shooting.

Nightforce Mil-C
Razor spotting scope Mil

Both have hashes every .2 Mil, so you can adjust, and call to the .1 Mil

Trying to hit, or spot for a 4" plate at 800 yards, you have to be precise to the .1 Mil, or it will be a miss. The entire target is only .17 Mil wide, and tall, or 1/2 MOA.

Or right at 4"....I got ya

Please show me the scope and reticle that speaks in inches. Is it inches at 100 yards? At 447 yards? At 1029 yards? Where does it make inches? Donkey!

All of mine say “1/4” at 100 yards”