I have been checking out Z5 Swaro's for my next scope and I have convinced myself that the Ballistic turrets system is the way to go. What say the THF'ers

My goal is to be able to shoot/hunt out to 350 or 400 yards.

Thanks guys

For out to 350 or 400, they will work. Not the most accurate method, but it will work. The weak link in the "system" will be the turret, but only out to 350 or so, it won't matter much on a game size animal.

+1

Bigfoot, you'd be better off with a Mil/Mil scope. With a decent scope, the turret wont dial you in "close", like the Swaro ballistic turret will, it will dial you in exact, based on your bullet weight, BC, and MV. Drastically change your temperature and altitude and use new corrections, as needed. 400 yards, and in, these are not drastic changes.

Having a Mil reticle makes wind holds much easier, and bullets do drift, needing a correction.

The glass in the Swaro is great, their system of allowing you to set the BT for essentially 4 different ranges is an interesting set up. The shortfall is you only get a single revolution of the turret (12-13 moa I think?). So depending on cartridge it limits your distance. Not an issue at 350-400 yards. Something else that might solve the problem for a 350-400 yard shot is a fast cartridge and a 250 yard zero.

Thank you gentlemen for the input. 30-06 is the cartridge I want to stay with and 350 yards in the future is a distance I would like to learn to shoot at and confidently so that I make an ethical shot on an animal. I doubt I will want to push it much farther than that but maybe a little as I get better. So I think I am perfectly in the parameters for my cartridge and the future scopes ability. My ability is what needs work!!!

A guy I work with has one on his McMillian built 300 WM. Gun and turrets was built for Federal Premium ammo with the 168gr TTSX. I’ve shot it out to 250 and he killed an elk at 325 yards across a valley in Idaho. The gun and scope were both dead on at those ranges. Scope always returned to zero. It’s marked up to 500 yards if I remember right.
Great scope for what you are wanting to do.

I've had guys come from as far away as Corpus Christi, Odessa, and Lubbock.

Come on!

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I had a customer who built a high end custom 6.5x284 rifle with a big bull barrel and Huskimaw scope. I had worked up a great shooting load shooting a Berger 140 grain that was easy sub 1/3 moa in his rifle. The Huskimaw scope promotes the use of their "custom" turrets. You tell them the ammo info and they build the "custom" turret for it. When building the "custom" turret, you give them the environmental conditions you want pre-programmed with that "custom" turret. He had the turret built, and I told him that this would be the weakest link in his "system". System meaning, rifle, ammo, scope and shooter. The scope with the error factor of the "custom" turrets were the weak link. He just said ok, and didn't give it much thought.

Fast forward about 2-3 weeks later. I get a phone call from him while he's at the gun range and he's all pissed off. He said he shot a 1.5" group at 500 yards, but it was 11" low (he measured it). He was all mad that the group was 11" low. I said ok, let's calculate it. I ran the drop data on his load with the environment the turret was programmed for. I then ran the numbers to the EXACT conditions he was shooting in. I calculated 10.2" difference between the "custom" turret and the current conditions he was shooting in. I said remember when we talked about the "custom" turret and it being the weak link in your system. Now you are seeing why that is the weak link and is not a precise system. It's not as simple as dialing to a "5" for a 500 yard shot. He asked what to do, and I said throw the "custom" turret away and put the regular MOA turret back on and learn MOA. Then calculate your drop data with the current weather conditions from now on. Problem solved and piece of cake.

My point is on 2 (eh 3) things.... 1- Inside of 300-400 yards, there is not much (yes there is some) variation between the various conditions to cause a large enough drop difference to really miss on a game size animal. In my example, 11" would be a clean miss on a deer from 500 yards. 2- the further you shoot, the more important the exact environmental conditions you are shooting in become important. And often times high extreme spreads of factory ammo (and it possibly not shooting as good) get lost in the larger variations seen at longer ranges which make it more difficult. And 3- a "custom" turret does not do anything to teach you how to dial properly for elevation. All it does is provide you a pre-programmed amount of clicks to turn the little thingy on top of the scope to, for that load specific to ONLY that rifle, ammo and pre-programmed conditions. You have not learned anything to carry over any knowledge of mils or moa dialing to apply that to your other rifles.

When I hear shooters talk of wanting a "custom" turret or BDC turret, I'm shaking my head inside and making a big sigh. But, that's just me. That's the difference between just shooting and precision shooting. If you want to be a precision shooter, you have to set up your "system" to not have any weak links. I want the weak link in the system to be me, not my rifle, scope or ammo.

Chad, what you outlined was very well stated and easy to understand. And it worried me. So, since my next scope on the 260 will have a CDS dial, replacing the MiL/MiL Vortex now on it, I went quickly to my ballistics program to examine impact point changes due to atmospheric changes (no altitude change). Out to 500 yards, I couldn’t generate a significant change in impact point more than a couple of inches. Maybe I missed something. Could you share more details on atmospheric changes that caused that fellow’s impact to be an unexpected 11 inches low at 500 yards? I want to understand so I can adjust my thinking as needed. Thanks.

My max shooting distance will be 500 yards, and it won’t be often except for paper.

I honestly do not remember the specifics between the 2 conditions. But I remember it was an extreme difference from each of the conditions. He was running a 140 VLD at 2850 and had a turret calculated for a certain condition on his property or in the mountains or something, which had some elevation to it. When you factor in altitude/elevation changes along with temps and pressure, it can change it up a lot.

You be the judge, 600 yards with ballistic Turret. think would be a dead deer. No one needs to be shooting live stuff past this range unless you like gutshot stuff, with legs dangling as they limp off.

Yes we have a few experts on here who have killed deer a few miles away but in reality its pretty much BS. Yes, I like the B.T.

and yes, I also like dialing which I will be doing at the hunters challenge match. Guess what Im saying, hunting ranges they are fine and steel shooting.... Past 700, I agree with Chad, dialing is better, just hope your shooting at steel.

Oh yea, you need the BEST equipment, dont take your old wizbang rifle with your bubble package scope and think you can do it.

Apparently, Chad’s guy had some rather extreme diffs between his original setup conditions and altitude and his ‘use’ location. That would introduce some drastic POI changes. And if you added in the use of factory ammo, that could or would make it even worse. You would think that the guy should have at least a working knowledge of how this all works before he starts using the scope.

As for me, I don’t plan to shoot a deer at 500 or even 400 yards, though over the years I have shot a few out to as far as 450 yards (back when I was younger). These days the truth is that I don’t really need a turreted scope for deer hunting. I just want one for pigs and coyote, which always seem to be out 400 yards or so. Now I can range them, with this new Leica RF, and I can hit them (if they’ll just hold still for a sec). And my zeroing conditions and the range of actual use conditions don’t vary much (temp and humidity). So I won’t be 11 inches off at 500. Maybe 2 inches or so, max.

yep, thats definitely the old fashion way of doing it but yes it will work.

Kentucky windage. Unless you're shooting 1 mile and further the "weather" conditions dont mean squat

I have a app on my phone called "Bullet Drop". It will tell you how many inches to hold over. also MOA and Mil's

Cold air is thick air, bullets shed velocity more quickly.

Hot air is thin air, bullets maintain velocity better.

Increase in A.S.L. elevation, is thinner air.

Are you loaded with a temp stable powder? If not, you are going to have bullet elevation changes, with temperature changes.

^^All of the above makes for elevation corrections that can differ. And it can happen at the same location in the same day. You'll need more elevation correction first thing in the morning, when it is cooler, than you will in the afternoon when it has warmed up. I shoot the same range 52 weeks a year. I am loaded with nothing but temperature stable powders. Temp stable powder is ALL I will use, because it eliminates one more variable. Having said that, I see elevation correction changes throughout the year. But admittedly, they are 500 yards, and beyond, for the most part. As an example, my typical 500 yard correction for 6.5 Creedmoor is 2.6 Mil. But, last summer, when it was 107° the correction was 2.4 Mil. 2/10 Mil difference is 3.6" at 500 yards. This morning, the correction would be 2.7 Mil, because the air is cold.

But, elevation is the easy part. What reticle do these ballistic turrets have in them? Wind is the trick, and the absolute best tool for properly correcting for wind is a Mil reticle. There is a nice, easy to remember pattern for properly correcting for wind, as far out as you please, with a Mil reticle.

Lots of guys like to gig me about being an MOA hater. I know how it works, and I can use it. But the better tool for the job is the Mil reticle, especially for wind corrections. If MOA worked better than Mil, MOA is what myself, and thousands of other shooters, and Snipers would be using. For many years PD Snipers used MOA reticles and turrets (or the abomination that is Mil reticle MOA turret). I can say with complete confidence they are switching over to Mil/Mil scopes now.

Complete nonsense. There have been thousands of misses on my range, even on big 2 MOA targets because of improper wind correction.

^^ This is it. Some shooters think it's as easy as dialing a "5" on the turret for a 500 yard shot and expect the bullet to be exactly on target. It's not that easy.

Once you learn moa and mils and "get it", it's like a light bulb moment. Once the shooter learns it and understands it, they all wonder why they didn't learn it sooner. I hear all the time that learning moa or mils is so much easier now that they understand it. But convincing and converting a shooter who relies on "custom" turrets is a difficult task when they have money and time already invested in their optic.

All true.

So many times, I've heard, "well this is easy". Scores of hunters and shooters eventually converted every scope over to Mil, once they actually learned how to use it, and made hits.

Right now I have that Vortex Viper 4-16 PST FFP, gen 1 on my 260, and we have bonded. I really like the scope, regardless of the abuse the gen 1 takes. And now I have gotten the Leupold VX5 3-15 with the firedot, and it will replace the Vortex on that rifle. I admit to having mixed feelings about changing scopes, but when Leupold finally sends me the turret, i’ll swap them out and head for the hay field to shoot.

I do ‘get’ the diff between Ballistic turrets and mil/mil turrets, and understand that I will be giving up some degree of precision. But...I hunt on my place, so altitude remains unchanged. The rifle is sighted in in cold temps and I hunt in cold temps. Things won’t change enough to make the Ballistic turret drastically wrong. A couple of inches at 500 yards aren’t going to ruin my coyote hunting life.

As for the wind, I am just not that good at reading it. The wind, back in 1971 at Edson Range, cost me a valid chance to set the Recruit Range Record. I was 2 points off perfect when went to prone at the 500 yard line (or was it 600, or was it meters? My memory on that fails me). I still made high shooter, but I wanted the recruit record. So the wind ain’t my friend. I really really wanted the record.

Distance is science, wind is art.

The art is learning how to read it. If someone can, they can apply science to it, in hard numbers (hold value)

Tens of thousands of rounds spotted and shot, and I am still learning.

I have that very scope on my deer rifle. It works fine for what I use it for - shooting at 400 and under. It’s pretty darn accurate/true to the specific ammo data input. I like it because it is simple and intuitive. Honestly, I just bought it because it was on sale at the time for the same price as the non-BT model. I keep it on the 200 yard setting and haven’t messed with the dialing in the field yet. I have the ranges set at 100 - 500. I will probably only dial for deer from 300-400 or if a hog or coyote presents itself at 300-500.

It’s fine for moderate ranges. More precision provided by MILs/MOA is obviously the way to go for longer ranges.

I, too, have looked at the “environmental” adjustment differences (altitude, humidity, etc.) in connection with my mountain hunts. Hard to envision a 10” adjustment necessary for those factors at 500 yards and under.

Thank you nogalus for letting me know your opinion. Under 350-400 is all I care about. Pure hunting optic.

The swarovski ballistic calculator does include elevation. And the BT settings are done by you. Not the factory. You pick the numbers you want and dial them in fairly easily at the range and change them accordingly.

BT4W reticle: I believe this would be sufficient for wind corrections FiremanJG

No buzz this is not going on a wizzbanger. Sako85's are not wizzbangers. They are like Rolex's. Fine instruments of art. And guns are fine art.