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Vortex ???? #7381227 12/19/18 02:04 PM
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I've always bagged on these. Are the new models good or is there better options out there, budget is around $1000


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7381229 12/19/18 02:07 PM
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Buzz, which Vortex are you referencing?

The Viper line?


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7381270 12/19/18 02:36 PM
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There's always better options than Vortex rifle scopes.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7381326 12/19/18 03:10 PM
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Pretty much no matter how much you spend, there’s still going to be a better option, if not this year, wait a year. After everyone on here raved about the Viper PST FFP gen 1 scopes a few years ago, I bought a couple. Now, of course, nobody has anything good to say about them. That said, there have been some great new scopes and improvements since then, so other and better scopes are an option. But, I really do like the 4-16 PST FFP on my 260. After Christmas, the new (and better option) Leupold VX5 3-15 HD will go on the rifle. The Viper will relocate to another rifle.

My point here is that, even though terrific scopes are available now, many of ‘last years’ scopes are still very good. I have a Leupold Vari-X III 6.5-20x50 with a 30 mm tube that I bought quite a few years ago (maybe almost 20 years) on my 220 Swift. Every time I use it in bright or dim light, I am again impressed with the clarity and brightness. I paid $1000 for it back then, so I wonder what today’s relative cost would be.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7381368 12/19/18 03:39 PM
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I can think of a few scopes for that money I’d rather buy.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: 603Country] #7381476 12/19/18 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 603Country
Pretty much no matter how much you spend, there’s still going to be a better option, if not this year, wait a year. After everyone on here raved about the Viper PST FFP gen 1 scopes a few years ago, I bought a couple. Now, of course, nobody has anything good to say about them.



They received long term testing. Which gave them more opportunities to fail, and they did. All the while, other brands held up just fine.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7381503 12/19/18 05:24 PM
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OK, that makes sense. And it’s probably why I haven’t had a problem yet, since I don’t work em like you guys do.

Last edited by 603Country; 12/19/18 05:26 PM.

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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: FiremanJG] #7381548 12/19/18 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
There's always better options than Vortex rifle scopes.


This and twice on Sundays. When I was selling scopes it seems we had more defective Vortex scopes returned for being defective than all the other major brands combined. As for hunting their low light performance is severely lacking according to my eyes.

I think their mini red dots are fine. Have had a Razor for four years and have been happy.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7381572 12/19/18 06:45 PM
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Vortex has a few things going against it...

One I think the are one of the larger brands out there. I would venture that the vast majority of shooters have had one or know someone that has them. Therefore more people have heard of issues. I have heard of more issues with chevys then I have with Lexus. But that is because more people drive chevys.

Two... they are one of the few full line dealers. They have scopes between 200 and 25000 and people expect 2500 build quality on everything.

Three... on the pst gen 1 line they overestimated people ability to follow instructions. Some of the failures were people over torquing tubes because they didn’t want to waste money on the right tool and crushing internals

Four... pst when it came out was ahead of its time. Other companies saw what they did and some of the flaws and fixed them on subsequent scopes. The pst gen 2 has a lot of improvements to make it more robust

A lot of vortex comments remind me of the old joke... know how to tell the difference between an American hunter and a European hunter??

An American hunter puts a 200$ scope on a 1k gun and a European puts a 1k scope on a 200$ gun.

That is to say people love to buy a new caliber but rarely will it make a difference. Whereas a good quality scope and ring set up will always make a difference.

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Cleric] #7381656 12/19/18 07:42 PM
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Dot disagreeing with you, and I can only reply based on my own experience.

The PST I I had was mounted, and torqued to spec exactly the same way I do every scope. It was used 12 months a year, exactly the way I do every other scope. It was the one that had to be sent in for repair. And, in my case, there was dust inside the scope. Couple that with turrets so easy to turn, that they would be moved just from having the rifle slung. When I unslung the rifle, I would have to check zeroes. Once it returned from Vortex, with a clean bill of health, Insold it for those reasons.

As many big matches I have shot, around millions of rounds, guess which scope brand do I see broke down the most often? And I don't attribute it to there being more Razors in the field. When I was between the Razor AMG, and the Nighforce ATACR, a reputation for reliability won the day, and that is where I spent my money. It has yet to have had a single problem.

When I decide to buy a scope, in the same price point as a Gen II Viper, I will spend my money on a Burris XTR II. I had one on loan from Burris for a year, and it never failed. When they asked for it back I told them "it has lots of scratches because I used it pretty hard." Their reply was "did it ever fail?" I said it did not, and they were glad it got a year long tough test put on it.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7381905 12/20/18 12:48 AM
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Truth be told I think the 1000-1500 scope range in not a place to be. Either get a simpler scope that is built well with No turrets and Rely on the reticle. Or move up to 1500-2000 and get a nxs, used atacr, bushy pro series, amg, mark 5 etc

I think the 1000-1500 is hard to build stuff with high quality and high reliability.

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7382002 12/20/18 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Buzzsaw
I've always bagged on these. Are the new models good or is there better options out there, budget is around $1000



Friends don't let friends buy Vortex. What features and magnification range are you looking for?

I know you like Hubbles.

Last edited by scottfromdallas; 12/20/18 02:27 AM.

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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Cleric] #7382018 12/20/18 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleric
Truth be told I think the 1000-1500 scope range in not a place to be. Either get a simpler scope that is built well with No turrets and Rely on the reticle. Or move up to 1500-2000 and get a nxs, used atacr, bushy pro series, amg, mark 5 etc

I think the 1000-1500 is hard to build stuff with high quality and high reliability.



I think the SWFA SS 5-20 owns that market and has for years.

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: wp75169] #7382084 12/20/18 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
Originally Posted by Cleric
Truth be told I think the 1000-1500 scope range in not a place to be. Either get a simpler scope that is built well with No turrets and Rely on the reticle. Or move up to 1500-2000 and get a nxs, used atacr, bushy pro series, amg, mark 5 etc

I think the 1000-1500 is hard to build stuff with high quality and high reliability.



I think the SWFA SS 5-20 owns that market and has for years.



LRHS

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Cleric] #7382386 12/20/18 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleric
Truth be told I think the 1000-1500 scope range in not a place to be. Either get a simpler scope that is built well with No turrets and Rely on the reticle. Or move up to 1500-2000 and get a nxs, used atacr, bushy pro series, amg, mark 5 etc

I think the 1000-1500 is hard to build stuff with high quality and high reliability.



I do disagree with that. There are plenty of scopes $1000 to $1500 that will give years of good service. Burris XTR II, SS 5-20X HD, used Bushnell ERS 3.5-21X. I'm going toward the seventh year of the SS 5-20 and it has never gave me a single problem. I also now have two Bushnell ERS.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: FiremanJG] #7382396 12/20/18 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Dot disagreeing with you, and I can only reply based on my own experience.

The PST I I had was mounted, and torqued to spec exactly the same way I do every scope. It was used 12 months a year, exactly the way I do every other scope. It was the one that had to be sent in for repair. And, in my case, there was dust inside the scope. Couple that with turrets so easy to turn, that they would be moved just from having the rifle slung. When I unslung the rifle, I would have to check zeroes. Once it returned from Vortex, with a clean bill of health, Insold it for those reasons.

As many big matches I have shot, around millions of rounds, guess which scope brand do I see broke down the most often? And I don't attribute it to there being more Razors in the field. When I was between the Razor AMG, and the Nighforce ATACR, a reputation for reliability won the day, and that is where I spent my money. It has yet to have had a single problem.

When I decide to buy a scope, in the same price point as a Gen II Viper, I will spend my money on a Burris XTR II. I had one on loan from Burris for a year, and it never failed. When they asked for it back I told them "it has lots of scratches because I used it pretty hard." Their reply was "did it ever fail?" I said it did not, and they were glad it got a year long tough test put on it.


Given your experience, what would you recommend for spotting scopes? If I had a budget that put me in the mid tier Razor SS, what would you recommend that would be equivalent or better in that 1200 to 1700 price range.

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: FiremanJG] #7382426 12/20/18 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by Cleric
Truth be told I think the 1000-1500 scope range in not a place to be. Either get a simpler scope that is built well with No turrets and Rely on the reticle. Or move up to 1500-2000 and get a nxs, used atacr, bushy pro series, amg, mark 5 etc

I think the 1000-1500 is hard to build stuff with high quality and high reliability.



I do disagree with that. There are plenty of scopes $1000 to $1500 that will give years of good service. Burris XTR II, SS 5-20X HD, used Bushnell ERS 3.5-21X. I'm going toward the seventh year of the SS 5-20 and it has never gave me a single problem. I also now have two Bushnell ERS.



My point is for a bit more money I think you get a lot more scope in terms of optical quality, features, and reliability.

Swfa ss is an older design with no zero stop and an okay reticle. Xtr is good but I have heard of failures.

People make vortex sound like an awful company but I have had 2 scopes perform well, never fail and a 11-33 spotter that I think is awesome balance of size and features.

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Big Puma] #7382436 12/20/18 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Puma
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Dot disagreeing with you, and I can only reply based on my own experience.

The PST I I had was mounted, and torqued to spec exactly the same way I do every scope. It was used 12 months a year, exactly the way I do every other scope. It was the one that had to be sent in for repair. And, in my case, there was dust inside the scope. Couple that with turrets so easy to turn, that they would be moved just from having the rifle slung. When I unslung the rifle, I would have to check zeroes. Once it returned from Vortex, with a clean bill of health, Insold it for those reasons.

As many big matches I have shot, around millions of rounds, guess which scope brand do I see broke down the most often? And I don't attribute it to there being more Razors in the field. When I was between the Razor AMG, and the Nighforce ATACR, a reputation for reliability won the day, and that is where I spent my money. It has yet to have had a single problem.

When I decide to buy a scope, in the same price point as a Gen II Viper, I will spend my money on a Burris XTR II. I had one on loan from Burris for a year, and it never failed. When they asked for it back I told them "it has lots of scratches because I used it pretty hard." Their reply was "did it ever fail?" I said it did not, and they were glad it got a year long tough test put on it.


Given your experience, what would you recommend for spotting scopes? If I had a budget that put me in the mid tier Razor SS, what would you recommend that would be equivalent or better in that 1200 to 1700 price range.



I have a used Gen I Razor 20-60X, and the fixed 30X eyepiece with Mil reticle. It has done a good job, and has had to be sent in for dust getting inside it. hammer I guess Vortex didn't expect west Texas to be a place it would get used. But it has been a good spotting scope. If you can still find them, they will be around $1200. If you do not need a reticle in your spotting scope (most people don't) many other options open up for you. You are on the right track spending that much on good glass. Lesser spotting scopes put me happily back behind my rifle scopes, because they were clearer. And clarity trumps magnification, in any optic.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: FiremanJG] #7383004 12/21/18 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by Big Puma
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Dot disagreeing with you, and I can only reply based on my own experience.

The PST I I had was mounted, and torqued to spec exactly the same way I do every scope. It was used 12 months a year, exactly the way I do every other scope. It was the one that had to be sent in for repair. And, in my case, there was dust inside the scope. Couple that with turrets so easy to turn, that they would be moved just from having the rifle slung. When I unslung the rifle, I would have to check zeroes. Once it returned from Vortex, with a clean bill of health, Insold it for those reasons.

As many big matches I have shot, around millions of rounds, guess which scope brand do I see broke down the most often? And I don't attribute it to there being more Razors in the field. When I was between the Razor AMG, and the Nighforce ATACR, a reputation for reliability won the day, and that is where I spent my money. It has yet to have had a single problem.

When I decide to buy a scope, in the same price point as a Gen II Viper, I will spend my money on a Burris XTR II. I had one on loan from Burris for a year, and it never failed. When they asked for it back I told them "it has lots of scratches because I used it pretty hard." Their reply was "did it ever fail?" I said it did not, and they were glad it got a year long tough test put on it.


Given your experience, what would you recommend for spotting scopes? If I had a budget that put me in the mid tier Razor SS, what would you recommend that would be equivalent or better in that 1200 to 1700 price range.



I have a used Gen I Razor 20-60X, and the fixed 30X eyepiece with Mil reticle. It has done a good job, and has had to be sent in for dust getting inside it. hammer I guess Vortex didn't expect west Texas to be a place it would get used. But it has been a good spotting scope. If you can still find them, they will be around $1200. If you do not need a reticle in your spotting scope (most people don't) many other options open up for you. You are on the right track spending that much on good glass. Lesser spotting scopes put me happily back behind my rifle scopes, because they were clearer. And clarity trumps magnification, in any optic.


Jason, if you ever decide to get rid of the spotter, I call dibs on the eye piece

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7383065 12/21/18 03:21 AM
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PST Gen 2 is a nice scope for the money. I think the Razor Gen 2 is the best value in long range precision optics IMHO. They can be had for $1800 brand new, which is silly for the quality, features, and reliability. You have to spend almost $3k to really do better. But at the $3k range, you have ATACR, Kahles, Minox, and other alpha-level scopes that are some of the best optics on the planet.

After doing an obscene amount of research and looking through scopes, my recommendations are as follows:

<$500 - SWFA fixed power
$500-$750 - Nikon FX-1000
$750-$1k - LRHS, SWFA 5-20 HD (used or discounted), PST Gen 2
$1k-$1500 - ERS, Athlon Cronus, Razor Gen 1 (used)
$1500-$2k - Razor Gen II 4.5-27
>$2k - pick your favorite reticle and roll with it. But if you have no reticle preference, my list would be Tangent Theta, ATACR, Minox, Kahles

So in 3 of the 5 price ranges, Vortex is on the list. I think they make nice scopes as long as you stay away from the cheap stuff. The SWFA HD 5-20, LRHS, ERS, and Cronus are all great value scopes in their price ranges as well. And I do think the FX-1000 from Nikon fills a nice hole in the market.

The one you won't find on any of my lists is Leupold. I'm just not a Leupold guy, but I've heard their newer precision tactical stuff is good. I just haven't tried it.

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7383093 12/21/18 03:47 AM
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You can do all the reading research you want. If you want to know what holds up, go to 24HCF and ask the guy who sees over 500k rds shot per year, testing all kinds of gear including rifles and scopes for the US military. Vortex doesn't make his cut no matter the price. You will find NF, LRHS, and SWFA though.

Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7383097 12/21/18 03:56 AM
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I've had my Gen2 Razor for a couple years now. I also have a few of the other other scopes on that list. The Razor is easily my favorite, and what I consider my best scope. Maybe I'm lucky.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: cxjcherokec] #7383125 12/21/18 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cxjcherokec
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Originally Posted by Big Puma
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Dot disagreeing with you, and I can only reply based on my own experience.

The PST I I had was mounted, and torqued to spec exactly the same way I do every scope. It was used 12 months a year, exactly the way I do every other scope. It was the one that had to be sent in for repair. And, in my case, there was dust inside the scope. Couple that with turrets so easy to turn, that they would be moved just from having the rifle slung. When I unslung the rifle, I would have to check zeroes. Once it returned from Vortex, with a clean bill of health, Insold it for those reasons.

As many big matches I have shot, around millions of rounds, guess which scope brand do I see broke down the most often? And I don't attribute it to there being more Razors in the field. When I was between the Razor AMG, and the Nighforce ATACR, a reputation for reliability won the day, and that is where I spent my money. It has yet to have had a single problem.

When I decide to buy a scope, in the same price point as a Gen II Viper, I will spend my money on a Burris XTR II. I had one on loan from Burris for a year, and it never failed. When they asked for it back I told them "it has lots of scratches because I used it pretty hard." Their reply was "did it ever fail?" I said it did not, and they were glad it got a year long tough test put on it.


Given your experience, what would you recommend for spotting scopes? If I had a budget that put me in the mid tier Razor SS, what would you recommend that would be equivalent or better in that 1200 to 1700 price range.



I have a used Gen I Razor 20-60X, and the fixed 30X eyepiece with Mil reticle. It has done a good job, and has had to be sent in for dust getting inside it. hammer I guess Vortex didn't expect west Texas to be a place it would get used. But it has been a good spotting scope. If you can still find them, they will be around $1200. If you do not need a reticle in your spotting scope (most people don't) many other options open up for you. You are on the right track spending that much on good glass. Lesser spotting scopes put me happily back behind my rifle scopes, because they were clearer. And clarity trumps magnification, in any optic.


Jason, if you ever decide to get rid of the spotter, I call dibs on the eye piece


I have the same spotter with both eyepieces (30X with Mil and the 20-60x)that is in perfect condition that I would sell.

Last edited by DStroud; 12/21/18 04:36 AM.

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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7383290 12/21/18 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FiremanJG
And clarity trumps magnification,
. Lots of people can’t seem to get their hands around that fact, even when they are shown it to be true.


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Re: Vortex ???? [Re: booradley] #7383354 12/21/18 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by booradley
Originally Posted by FiremanJG
And clarity trumps magnification,
. Lots of people can’t seem to get their hands around that fact, even when they are shown it to be true.



The 10X Leica Geovids I bought prove it. Hunting Brewster county (mountains) we were glassing beyond 1000 yards away, and could not believe all the detail we could see.


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