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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: wall8053]
#7311797
10/12/18 12:57 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,796
dogcatcher
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Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: J.G.]
#7311811
10/12/18 01:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 915
hdfireman
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And YOU would be the authority on that! Far from the authority brotha. Lol.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7312428
10/12/18 07:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,642
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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or make the 6.8 case in a bigger diameter? If you make the bullet bigger, it adds weight. Weight decreases your velocity. Weight also adds much more logistics problems when shipping ammo to battle zones. Hence the polymer case idea that is taking off now. Not the bullet, the case. Increase the case capacity of the 6.8 by enlarging the diameter of the case. You could then also neck it down to 6.5 and really have something.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#7312451
10/12/18 07:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,993
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
Snarky Mark
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Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,993 |
in the AR -15 platform we are talking Grendel and 6.8 and of those 2 the 6.8 is more reliable with feeding and the Grendel bolts are weaker. Which is a 1000X more important than BC in a combat weapon. The Grendel groupies will be along shortly to tell you how wrong you are and call you names. I've broken 2 Grendel bolts, myself.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks]
#7312476
10/12/18 08:10 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,951
ChadTRG42
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or make the 6.8 case in a bigger diameter? If you make the bullet bigger, it adds weight. Weight decreases your velocity. Weight also adds much more logistics problems when shipping ammo to battle zones. Hence the polymer case idea that is taking off now. Not the bullet, the case. Increase the case capacity of the 6.8 by enlarging the diameter of the case. You could then also neck it down to 6.5 and really have something. When you enlarge the case, it creates all kinds of feeding and ejection challenges. The 6.8 is about as big as you can go and still use existing parts and pieces of the rifles.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: wall8053]
#7312513
10/12/18 08:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,179
Tactical Cowboy
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The biggest problem is that the M4 is NOT a 600 yard rifle. When the M16 was introduced, it was supposed to be a 300 yard gun.
They need to realize the limitations of the current rifle, give everyone a AR10, or come up with something completely different.
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: wall8053]
#7312547
10/12/18 09:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,809
Cleric
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
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Posts: 3,809 |
6.5 grandel can do 600 yards
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: Cleric]
#7312583
10/12/18 10:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,568
garyrapp55
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6.5 grandel can do 600 yards But can it do that with the 14.5 inch barrel the military likes?
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: wall8053]
#7312590
10/12/18 10:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,179
Tactical Cowboy
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And who is going to train all of the troops in long range shooting?
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: Tactical Cowboy]
#7312609
10/12/18 10:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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And who is going to train all of the troops in long range shooting? Takes one day. If the military decided to do it, it could be done.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7312617
10/12/18 11:11 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,174
scottfromdallas
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in the AR -15 platform we are talking Grendel and 6.8 and of those 2 the 6.8 is more reliable with feeding and the Grendel bolts are weaker. Which is a 1000X more important than BC in a combat weapon. The Grendel groupies will be along shortly to tell you how wrong you are and call you names. I've broken 2 Grendel bolts, myself. It's happened more than once. Everyone forgets about mechanical reliability and durability when they talk about the Grendel. Great target and sporting round.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: J.G.]
#7312621
10/12/18 11:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,179
Tactical Cowboy
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They can’t train most of them how to zero a rifle.
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: Tactical Cowboy]
#7312747
10/13/18 01:32 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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They can’t train most of them how to zero a rifle.
Then they suck as trainers.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: J.G.]
#7312755
10/13/18 01:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,609
SapperTitan
Taking Requests
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They can’t train most of them how to zero a rifle.
Then they suck as trainers. Budget only allows most units to qualify the minimum of once every six months o think we usually qualified maybe 3 times a year for most of the time I was in. Getting, transporting, and issuing ammo is a pain in the arse. Then you have the fact that there are a bunch of units trying to schedule ranges and not near enough ranges for all the units so it’s hard to even schedule a range. It’s a pain in the arse you can’t just grab your guys and drive to a range and teach them how to shoot hell its so hard to get ranges made for M4 qualification that many use a target at 25 meters with a bunch of different silhouettes some smaller some bigger. Small ones represent 300M big ones 50M with other sizes inbetween. So you do your whole qual at 25M. Prone supported, prone unsupported and from a knee.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: SapperTitan]
#7312774
10/13/18 02:00 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Looks like more time, ammo, and ranges need to be dedicated. They'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on JDAMs, but not spend it on making better riflemen.
A very interesting read is "Inside Delta Force". Those guys shot a 1911 so much, the blisters on their hands were bleeding. Shoot house qual was live rounds and live bodies. You sit as a hostage while your brothers came in after a flash bang and engaged the hostage takers. They became surgeons with pistols, and were not afraid of their buds shooting them, only afraid of shooting their buds when it was their turn. Though no incidents were reported in the book.
Of course that is the extreme end of the spectrum, but it shows what training time and money can produce.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: wall8053]
#7312868
10/13/18 04:59 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,234
gusick
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I've been reading about this for at least 15 years. I'll believe it when I see it.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7313522
10/13/18 11:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 868
Txhillbilly
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Why can't they either lengthen the Grendel case Then it won't fit in an AR-15 platform. You have a max length of 2.250" (or 2.260") as max length. or make the 6.8 case in a bigger diameter? If you make the bullet bigger, it adds weight. Weight decreases your velocity. Weight also adds much more logistics problems when shipping ammo to battle zones. Hence the polymer case idea that is taking off now. If they would use ASC magazines,they could have a COAL of 2.300". That's what I run in my 6.8 and 6.5x6.8 wildcat AR's.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: wall8053]
#7313921
10/14/18 02:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 740
Jhop
Tracker
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Y'all are forgetting that the military used to have long range guns. M1903, M1903A3, M1903A4, M1 Garand(M1C and M1D versions). Then there was the M14 that the M16 replaced. Why did they replace the M14 with an M16? Without going into the FN FAL in 7.62 was better than M14 deal. Biggest reason was weight. For the guys advocating for an AR-10 platform, I'd suggest you mount a small optic, light and handle. Then put a 30rd magazine in one and carry it at port arms for 5 miles. Oh, don't forget the body armor and equipment and the rest of that 210 basic load in magazines.
My guess is the Army will go with a 6.8 SPC II with a 85-95Gr FMJBT bullet in a piston driven rifle very similar to the M4 with a 12.5-14.5 inch barrel. Remember this thing will have a suppressor. My guess is good as the next guy on the SAW type weapon. I'd bet that will have a 18-20 barrel for a little better long range performance. I don't remember how long the barrel is on the Saudi Arabian land forces 6.8 SPC SAW type weapon is, but they already have one. They also have an LWRC with a short barrel in 6.8 SPC.
Retired U. S. Army, which means I still have to work to make a living.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: Jhop]
#7313934
10/14/18 02:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,179
Tactical Cowboy
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,179 |
Y'all are forgetting that the military used to have long range guns. M1903, M1903A3, M1903A4, M1 Garand(M1C and M1D versions). Then there was the M14 that the M16 replaced. Why did they replace the M14 with an M16? Without going into the FN FAL in 7.62 was better than M14 deal. Biggest reason was weight. For the guys advocating for an AR-10 platform, I'd suggest you mount a small optic, light and handle. Then put a 30rd magazine in one and carry it at port arms for 5 miles. Oh, don't forget the body armor and equipment and the rest of that 210 basic load in magazines.
My guess is the Army will go with a 6.8 SPC II with a 85-95Gr FMJBT bullet in a piston driven rifle very similar to the M4 with a 12.5-14.5 inch barrel. Remember this thing will have a suppressor. My guess is good as the next guy on the SAW type weapon. I'd bet that will have a 18-20 barrel for a little better long range performance. I don't remember how long the barrel is on the Saudi Arabian land forces 6.8 SPC SAW type weapon is, but they already have one. They also have an LWRC with a short barrel in 6.8 SPC. So were men just tougher back then?
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: wall8053]
#7313950
10/14/18 03:06 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 740
Jhop
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Yep and they could see better too. Hunters and infantry all used open sights.
Basic load for m1903 thru M1 Garand was only 80rds. 5 mags or 100 RDS for an M14. They didn't carry all that armor and extra equipment like soldiers do today.
Last edited by Rcinit; 10/14/18 03:14 PM.
Retired U. S. Army, which means I still have to work to make a living.
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Re: New military caliber?
[Re: wall8053]
#7316908
10/17/18 01:49 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 435
rvrrat14
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 435 |
This will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Been with 6.8 for about 5 years. It will KEEEL!
6.8x43 is a superb cartridge for the AR/M4 platform. I prefer the 18” barrel, but have a 16” too. They both shoot lights out and on hogs/deer are sure nuff stoppers.
Out to the ranges the military seek, it will do fine. I just don’t have faith in our ‘system’.
Our troops deserve better. We’ll see.
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