Working on it with my Marlin Slugmaster for a whitetail & nilgai hunt on East Lake. Curious about the components you are using to solve the stack in the hull.

RD I have only loaded a few an those were with a Cousin that taught me reloading. We were using slgs from a lee mold and datafrom the sheet that came with th mold. IIRC we used Winchester AA wads and AA hulls but has been many year and that cousin sadly is no longer with us to ask.

Good luck with your loads and the hunts

We were loading I believe the third load from the bottom in this LOAD DATA LINK

They shot as good r better than factory slug loads he tried in his Browning Auto 5 slug gun

Thanks, kmon1. I've been messing with them off and on for a couple of years now without a lot of success. I'm working with the HS6 loads from that sheet but they are not shooting very well. I know it is the load as I have some Lightfield Hybrid Elite ammo and with my Marlin 512 Slugmaster, at 50-yards, three shots touch. The Lee has been hit or miss from pretty good to MOY (yardstick) plus the velocity has been considerably lower than the supplied data indicates. That load calls for the Federal 12S3 column wad and I think that is the problem as most are destroyed when I find them downrange. That wad is discontinued and I have tried several others that claim to be replacements for the 12S3 to no avail.

Claybusters has a new slug column wad that Ballistic Produces is selling and that should be here in a couple of days so I will see what it can do. There is a bit of chance to fitting the components within the column to get everything under 100% compression.

Figure you already know about this link but others most likely don't

v
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load14_04_25.htm

But, this guy has forgotten more than he knew! I've been chasing this for years off and on depending on drawing results. I've seen the BPI Loads in the past, but have forgotten about them. Thank you!

I'm using the 40-grains of HS6 from the slug mold instruction, not with the listed hull but with a Cheddite, I do have the discontinued Federal wad column (12S3). It shows a velocity of 1550 FPS but doesn't mention the barrel length. I see 1485 FPS with my Marlin's 21" barrel. It is a thumper, but this is the minute of yardstick load I mentioned. I pondered this a bit, went back through a lot of bookmarks, and decided to trim the wad's petals to the meet the ogive of the slug. Three shots were a marked improvement; one was a bit of a flier that made it minute of ruler. Before this, all wads have had at least one missing petal. I picked up every wad and associated it with the shot. Not sure why the worn wad lost a petal, but all these were from pulled loads that I didn't want to shoot rather than a fresh hull. What is interesting was that all column wads were within 6" of each other at 28 yards and just left of centerline.



I'm a Ballistic Product customer, just ordered some things early this morning. After seeing the Curmudgeon's load with Clays International, I called them a few minutes ago and added the PT1205 column wad. I've had a bottle of Clays sitting around here for years and never figured out what to use it with other than with my 218 Bee to replicate 22 LR performance.

Another thing your reminder did for me will see me switch from the 8 to 6-segment star on my Load-All II. I noticed that the BP loads listed a 6-star crimp specifically and I'm willing to bet that will be easier on the column wad petals.

Thanks for the help, I will report back. I'm going to cast some more slugs in the morning.

I have shot lots of clays and clays International when competing in Skeet and Sporting Clays leagues. I liked how much cleaner burning it was than red dot.

Look forward to your report and thanks for posting this. Got me thinking back to a fun time about 40 years ago learning a lot from reloading with my Cousin. First wildcat I ever worked with he showed me how to make the brass for his 30 Herrit and I made 200 pieces of it for him.

See, another good reminder. I have both powders and my comments about the 218 load is with Clays. I actually bought the International by mistake as most dealers still refer to it as International Clays. Hodgdon changed the name to straight up International to avoid mistakes and my 4 lb jug is labeled with that.

International is the same as ADI AS50N, which is in QuickLoad, so I've messed around with it in pistols and revolvers, not much really, as it is a very volatile powder. It is nice to find a use for it.

Gonna start casting slugs as soon as I feed my dog.

Waiting on column wads from BPI. The 3-shot, 50 yard average of my 12S3 and HS6 loads was a dismal 5.6". The Lightfield slug ammo was 1.6".

Looking forward to the report with the column wads and see if that makes a good difference. I rarely ever hunt anything but birds with the shotguns anymore but you never knowe. Good luck with the loads and on the hunt

I personally wouldn’t use them on Nilgai. I was on a hunt on East lake and saw a fellow hunter pump three slugs from his semi auto into a cow and they tried tracking it for hours. It was probably about 70 yards away. Found only a few specks of blood. They finally found it the next day when they saw the buzzards flying around the carcass! Just my .02 worth.

FedEx brought my next order which contained Claybusters SW250-12 Slug Wad. Very disappointed once opened as it is a replacement for the WAA12F114 which is a 1 1/8 ounce cup. Had Ballistic Precision used an image of the package label I wouldn't have bought them as the cup is way too deep for the Lee slug. Even It takes three Nitro cards to get the slug to the proper height.



In that, I waited this long I used 26.0-grains of International. It shot terrible. You can see the wad is missing all the pedals and the gas seal is damaged. I loaded up four and two didn't reach the backstop. I have no idea where they went. It sure made a mess of the barrel, it was really leaded up. I remain convinced that the slug nose must be clear of the cup petals.

Next up is the 078 Lightning and PT1205 wads (7/8 ounce cup). That should be in a day or two. Hopefully, that will do it as I'm not feeling like buying any more components. I'm not sure what I will do with the components that haven't worked out, boy oh boy, I have a bunch of them. I could have bought about 150 rounds of the Lightfield Elite for what I have in this loading effort.

Don't have a choice during the deer season hunt. Either that or a muzzleloader.



Last time I was there a fellow shot a bull at 126-yards, standing out in the road, chest cavity hit. It went straight down, did not wiggle.

Lee does have a recipe for the WAA12F114 for a WinAA hull, but I don't have it. It still would not solve the issues with the slug sitting in such a deep cup. I really scratch my head and wonder if Lee really shot any of these loads. From the shooting I've done off and on over the years, a single 20-Gauge Nitro card between column wad and slug is a good thing, it has always shot better than without. When you start to stack two or more, not.

Back to not having the hull, my view coming from a lifetime of metallic reloading is that recipes could solve the hull issue by listing the H20 capacity of the hull, either grains or cubic centimeters. Then a reloader could determine if the various hulls on hand would work. Shotgun reloading software is almost nil.

I have a friend that writes the TMT software, I've done the beta testing for years, and talked him into venturing into shotgun reloading at the same level his rifle software handles metallic reloading. It is going to handle everything associated with calculating the stack within a hull. He started early this year and I should have a working copy in a few days. It takes a while. It is not a pressure calculator, but it will allow you to examine the components of a stack and then see what is needed from those you have on your end. As long as the charge and the shot weight doesn't change the plastic, paper, or felt in the middle has a very little impact on the pressure. What is important is getting a 100% compression within the stack without the trial and error or excessive purchasing of components.

This started with me getting ready to load BBs. It has been since the '70s when I started using them for hogs, and 25 lbs of shot goes a long way. At the end of the winter, I was down to a couple of rounds, and I soon found out that there is very little in the way of recipes for BBs. Everyone has gone to buckshot, but I will not use it under a feeder.

Anyway, some screenshots from the software.









If I ever can stop fiddling with the stack within a hull, I'm going to start in with pressure testing loads for the Lee slugs and somehow making it available to others. I have the RSI pressure trace equipment.

I was loading their 7/8 oz slug with a light charge (I’d have to look at the weight) of titegroup for 3 gun. It was accurate enough to whack a steel target, but I never did any real load testing.

Ended up swapping to the Fiocchi 7/8oz low recoil and haven’t looked back.

Update... waiting on column wad shipment from Ballistic Products.

In the meantime, worked on the difference of shooting 2¾" vs. 3" ammo in the Marlin. The chamber of this slug gun is 3", but there is an issue with using 3" and magazine feed. My rifle is a 1996 model, and by 1997 there was a note in the catalog that "3-inch saboted ammunition might not function through the magazine." As the years progressed, it simply became a catalog note that the rifle was a single shot with 3" and 2¾" ammo would be needed for magazine feed.

Based on my experience with lead bullets in rifles, I was very interested if the ¼" shorter ammo was a problem. In effect, if you look at SAAMI chamber specs for slug guns, using a 2¾" shell in a 3" chamber creates a ¼" of freebore. That difference with a lead bullet in a rifle is a deal killer.

After a week of shooting, the freebore issue is a deal killer in a slug gun as well. Groups with factory 3" ammo are half that of 2¾" ammo. So my Marlin 512 Slugmaster will be used as a single shot with 3" ammo. The best I've shot at 50 yards is 1.3" for a three shot group. With a .70" projectile, there is no paper left between the holes.

The trouble with the Lee slug is that there is no data for 3" hulls, so I'm going to need to head out on my own to solve this. Right now, I have every slug manual available plus a loaddata.com subscription. I'm looking for anything thing with Hodgdon HS6, International, or Universal loads. All 3" loads use slug weights over an ounce so whatever is listed will be good to go with the Lee one-ounce. I will need to solve the column stack to make them work.

In the meantime, I found my Lee Deluxe 3" 12 Gauge Reloader, and it is better than working with the Load-All II with the 3" hulls.



Right now, my rifle is sighted in with the Lightfield 3" Hybred Elite 546-grain Saboted slug. Here is what the ballistics look like against my best shooting Lee load, a 2¾" hull load. I hope to increase velocity with the Lee slug though load work so that the 75-yard terminal performance narrows all the while decreasing the Lee's MOA. Once I start working with the column wads being shipped, I will put a strain gauge on the barrel and see what can be done to increase the pressure up to the max of 11.5K PSI. It is a bit of a pain with a shotshell as every change to the charge needs to be adjusted out of the column components to maintain a 100% hull density. Shotshell handloading is tough.



All this for one 75-yard shot a month from now.

I have spent the downtime that I'm waiting for components updating a "calculator" that will determine what is needed for the component stack. The left side of the calculator is getting ready to change quite a bit as I realize that it cannot be simple. For instance, every column wad has a cup on the bottom and the cc of that cup must be calculated and accounted for or the whole stack is off. It is easy to calculate.



Sheet contains just about every calculation you need to work with. It comes from a calculator that I put together for working with Lee products using cc and VMD. For those interested, it can be downloaded here: VMD Calculator

Well, BPI goofed up my latest order of column wads. I called them this morning, they never sent the order. That probably is a deal killer for me using the Lee slug on the East Lake Hunt. I'm going to be gone for a bit and then whitetail hunting starts here. I probably will not have time to go any further.

I did hear from the Lightfield big dog. A really interesting, in-depth reply concerning the shooting with the two different hull lengths in a 3" chamber. In a nutshell, it should not matter, but from my end, it is not working out that way. He suggested I expend some ammo to see if the 2¾" ammo accuracy improves. He also suggested, in that I'm a reloader with tools, roll crimp the 3" shells a bit more to get them to fit the magazine if possible. At $2.50 a shot, I'm probably not going to do either and just shoot the Marlin as a single shot.

I did have some time to work on the column stack calculator, putting in a bit of logic to make selections easier. It is working out.

Been a while, but I haven't given up. I put this on hold while I prepped my centerfires for hunting season.

Honestly, I'm scratching my head. I bought the components that match the BPI recipe, and like the Lee data, the stack doesn't work out within the confines of the hull. It's been a very frustrating process.

Yesterday, I went back to the bench on my own and will try to take a few days to work it out. I doubt the Lee slug is going to deliver 2.5 MOA I'm asking. They will shoot through the same hole at 25-yards, but you need a yardstick to measure the groups at 50-yard. Just to take a guess out, the same hole at 25-yards is not an important measure as my Mossberg 500 with a cylinder barrel shoots them the same.

Off and on over six years, I've spent a similar amount of time with this and never reached a successful conclusion. I've also spent a lot of time on the search forums and youtube but never seen anyone come up with a successful measured conclusion. It seems most are happy just solving the column stack and I have never seen anybody post results that measure up to modern ammunition.

So far, this is what I've used to achieve my best results, 3.3 to 3.5 MOA. I said best, but not acceptable.

• Hull length matches chamber length, don't create freebore with a shorter hull.
• The column wad petals are not to be longer than the start of the ogive radius of the slug. Trim them if needed. The nose of the slug must completely open the star crimp before the leading edge of the petals encounters the star.
• A 16 or 20 gauge card wad is needed between the slug and the column wad cup.

I've made some adjustments to my latest effort and will shoot them today. If unsuccessful, I will make sure the SG is sighted in at 100-yards with the 3" Lightfields and leave it at that.

Oh, I figured out the magazine issue with the Lightfields! The previous owner must have taken it apart to clean it and reassembled it wrong! There is the limitation notice for the Marlin 512 Slugmaster in the period catalogs, but the Lightfields squeak by!

I plan to continue searching for an acceptable projectile that I can cast from home. The fellow that owns NOE Moulds is a friend of mine, and we reviewed the Lee Slug at length. It all comes down to the Key Drive pin design. It needs to be slightly shorter so that more lead remains in the nose of the foster design and it needs to have a slightly greater final outside diameter which will deliver a thinner skirt. Both of these changes would move the center gravity ahead of the center of pressure/lift. On a tabletop and if set on its side, the one-ounce slug would demonstrate the same characteristics of their 7/8-ounce slug. It would roll over on its nose. I also was going to change the "Key". Rather than cut the hollow base in half, I was going to make quarter the base with a "crosshair" key. This would support the column wad cup and eliminate the need for a card wad between the slug and cup.

The idea was that NOE would offer a replacement key pin for the existing Lee mold rather than cut a new mold. The snag is that the Lee Key is patented. Oh well.

NOE is going to start offering the Lyman style, the shuttlecock design, for both 12 Gauge and 410 Bore. He is going to be sending me the 12 Gauge in a few days for testing, but it will be a little late for my hunting trip.

I've been also pondering the Accurate 73-470S, a full-bore slug. It totally eliminates the column wad issue. Waxed Nitro over powder cards are used to obtain the length and a roll crimp is used to secure it in place.

I will see what today brings and report back.

A blog here, but I hate to leave something undone...

Yesterday, I started to take everything down and move all the components back to storage. I stood there staring at everything and decided to deprime a fresh hull (shotgun primer sticks above the bottom of the hull) and work backward with it for one last push. The idea being that this might be the best way of determining the toughest part of loading a shotgun hull, the 100% compression of the stack.

I filled the hull with what has worked best:

• Lee 1-ounce slug
• One BP 20-Gauge Nitro Card
• Federal 12S3 Column Wad with the petals trimmed to the aft edge of the slug's ogive.
• BPGS Gas Seal.

Next I measured from the mouth of the hull, down .470" and marked the hull with a fine Sharpe. the .470", represents the length needed to fold the star crimp to center plus the length needed for the material that is folded over into the hull with a flush star. Then,

• I placed the hull on an electronic scale and turned it on to get a "tare" weight (zero).
• Then I filled the hull with distilled water to the marked line. I use distilled for an H20 value as its specific gravity is a constant.
• Then I reweighed the hull which gave me the H20 grains. That value is divided by 15.432 to get the volume of the water expressed in cubic centimeters (cc).
• Next, I divided the available cc by the VMD of all the appropriate powders I have available.

I have a list of all the maximum charges that I've found for these powders. My idea is that max is almost a constant as there is no way to compress a charge with a star crimp, it will unfold. Sure the different components will produce different amounts of drag, but I just don't think it matters in the sum of pressure with a star crimp.

Comfortably inside the max charges sat 25-grains for International with none of the others; Clays, HS-6, Unique, and Universal near enough. That made me smile as I have 4 lbs of International that was sent to me by mistake, a powder that I've never found a use for other than with my 25 Auto. The 1-grain charge was never going to consume that jug. I've always loved the "camo" appearance of the International grains. Perfect for hunting!



Anyway, I loaded up three fresh hulls, once fired but conditioned, and shot them from at 50-yards. Holy smokes, see the group in the upper left of the target. Velocity was 1615 FPS, which is impressive with a one-ounce slug.



I went back to my reloading room and pulled the components from 4 loaded shells that I was not going to shoot; I didn't run them back through anything, just loaded them up. It is the larger group in the lower left. I'm blaming the performance on the fact that the crimp wasn't solid, I should have run them back through all the steps needed, I have a tool that irons out the folds in a hull; I should have started fresh. The velocity, 1550 FPS, is probably a product of the opened and refolded star crimp.

Of all the column wads I have on hand, the Federal 12S3 has proved the most valuable. This wad was discontinued some time ago, but there are clones available from some sources; Claybusters, MEC, and others. With them, you must be certain they are a perfect clone, not just diameter and length, compare the strut and make sure they use virgin plastic. I've always found the 12S3s laying in a pile downrange at about 27-yards, and as long as the petals are trimmed, they are always intact. The petals always show great contact with the bore and the base of the cup is never distorted. The latter has been a problem with some of the clones. Here is the 12S3 vs. the MEC 100T4 which was offered as a clone, not close in appearance and performance.



I went ahead and shot the 100T4 yesterday as well, and the group was minute of yardstick (MOY). Notice that there is no evidence of the rifling engraving the petals and they always have at least one petal folded back. There is also a bit of flow off the base of the cup into the slug, not much, but it is evident. The 12S3 is as solid as it was when loaded.

The component stack...



Here is how I get a good, uniform, petal cut with the column wads. I use five 20 gauge Nitro Cards compressed into the cup with a finger against them. It is very quick, marking the petals with a fine Sharpie as I spin the cup on my finger. I use surgical scissors to cut the petals.



For now, I'm still planning on using the Lightfields for my hunt and I'm not changing the scopes zero from that ammo to the Lee handloads. I do have several weeks and will give the load a chance, if it is tight with new hulls and consistent, I will use it. I'm out of the clear hulls, but at least I have the stack solved and will move on with new hulls and update my results soon.

Good stuff RD.

Thanks, it will be a couple of days before I continue. Working on my food plots before this next front.

Looks like the Lee slugs are going nilgai hunting!

Yesterday's effort, the three shots through the bull. The target doesn't say it, but this was at 50-yards. Three shots do not a group make, but it offers me the encouragement to continue. All the blue tape represents my previous effort.



I also made one more stab at using 2 3/4" hulls vs. 3". The shorter in the 3" chamber is an absolute fail and reinforces the rules I've come up with for the Lee slugs.

As I mentioned before, I've not found one post or video concerning these slugs that have documented acceptable accuracy with the slugs and how they achieved it. It seems nimrods are just happy with them exiting the barrel. Lee hasn't helped with this. The mold instructions make it seem that there is nothing to the effort and their data is limited and dated.

I believe that getting a saboted Foster slug out the barrel with acceptable hunting accuracy, 2.5 MOA or less, takes discipline with attention to detail. It took 104 shots prior to that last three shot group to get it right. I've spent a lot of time with each three or five shot group, thinking about what went wrong with the string. Attention to detail is everything, these loads cannot be thrown together. I've added an additional step based on what a friend with a lot of experience offered.



Indexing the fold in the center of a four petal wad ensures that a six-star crimp fold does not match the split in the column wad petals. Here is my revised list of rules I'm sticking with.

• Hull length matches chamber length, don't create freebore with a shorter hull.
• The column wad petals are not to be longer than the start of the ogive radius of the slug. Trim them if needed. The nose of the slug must completely open the star crimp before the leading edge of the petals encounters the star.
• A 16 or 20 gauge card wad is needed between the slug and the column wad cup.
• Use a six-star crimp vs. an eight.
• Index the center of a petal with the fold of star crimp.

Continuing with attention to the details, I think the Lee Load-All II is probably the best (affordable) press for this effort if all you are going to do is load slugs, but the problem is that it has been designed for 2 3/4" shells. More specifically, the crimp starter and crimp folder are perfect when the press bottoms out. Lee claims that you can work with 3" shells "by feel", but my effort has not been successful. The image provides a bunch of details.



I've removed the "feel" from using the press with 3" shells by using a 1" spacer, a socket that met the diameter and height requirements, and use it to bottom out the press what working with the fifth and six stations (the star crimping stations). Lee could solve this issue for everyone by offering a 1" spacer based on the Sizer ring which is 3/4" in height.



From here, it is on to 75 and 100-yards. I probably will just shoot about three rounds a day, I've been limiting it to twelve because the effect on the body is a bit brutal after what I've shot.

The latest ballistics.

I continue to document this because one day, some other poor slob is going to take this effort on to hunt East Lake and I hope to save him a bunch of money, trouble, and time. Hopefully, Google will bring him here.

The slugs did not do well at 75 yards, could see them in flight make a helical path that kept getting wider. So, the Lee reloads have been dropped and I'm back to the Lightfields that do great out to 100-yards (haven't shot them further, but there is no need to.

Still going to push this to some type of resolve so I have a slug gun ready with my loaded ammunition for the next draw. I have an NOE 680-500-HB (Lyman shuttlecock clone) on the way as well as the Accurate 71-470S, a full-bore bullet.





That brings the work with Lee slugs to a close, the remaining slugs will be rendered back to lead for these designs.

I resighted the Marlin in with the Lightfields. I started with the 3" Hybred Elites and stopped. There is no way I can hang on to the rifle with a yoked camera tripod from my popup chair, it is a handful and it hurts. This is with me shooting with a foam panel live jacket on. It is brutal. Not so with the 2 3/4". This ammo delivers the accuracy I'm going to judge my handloads with.


After the three-shot string, I adjusted the windage to the right and thought I would pop a 6" gong that hangs out there at 100 yards. That was a mistake. It knocked the heck out of it and busting one of the heavy chains with the pop.