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Mar 25th, 2012
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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: dee] #7251353
08/10/18 03:32 PM
08/10/18 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: dee
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Slowing them down sufficiently seems like the solution to me. I wonder if that might even help get them through heavy bone.


Running 115 vld from a 25-06 at 3100 has been nothing but a hammer on stuff.


Diameter versus length, perhaps? Compared to a 168 gr 7mm, in a 7 Rem Mag. Not good for BC, may be good for terminal performance.

Put that 168 in a 7mm-08, and I bet it'll do better. I know 162 Hornady's do terrific.



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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251389
08/10/18 04:25 PM
08/10/18 04:25 PM
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Maybe. I used target bergers in others but those have a thicker jacket.


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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251403
08/10/18 04:40 PM
08/10/18 04:40 PM
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What's got me scratching my head on these though, is the crazy inconsistencies. Some 6.5mm 140 VLD-H bullets out of a 6.5x284 running 3K fps have ice picked through game, meaning no expansion at all. I've had good info on this with some other fast rounds in the 6.5mm. But put the VLD-H in a 300 Win Mag with a 190 or 210 grain VLD-H, and they work freaking awesome, like a normal fast expansion VLD should.

Another thing to consider on these... When loading the VLD bullets, the bullet jump to the lands is a very important measurement. I like to seat the ogive just touching the rifling, so I measure these when I load them. I have seen as high as .040" difference between the bullet lengths when keeping the same ogive measurement. So, the bullet itself is longer or shorter and the nose profile of the bullet changed. Not only does this effect the BC, but this can effect the placement of the lead inside and how much lead (or no lead) is in the hollow point part of the cavity. I'm thinking this variation could effect how the bullet performs on soft tissue. I don't know.



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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251480
08/10/18 05:51 PM
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Why are you scratching your head?
190's and 210's out of a .300 Win Mag are coming out slower than the 140's out of a 6.5-284.



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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251496
08/10/18 06:09 PM
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Why are some 6.5mm 140's blowing up and some ice picking through?



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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251500
08/10/18 06:11 PM
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Did the blown up ones hit heavy bone? How fast was their muzzle velocity. How fast was the MV of the ice pick bullets?



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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251503
08/10/18 06:15 PM
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6.5x284, 26 Nosler, down to 6.5 CM and 260 Rem rounds. Large velocity differences between those. I've seen ice pick results, as well as extreme fragmentation on these.



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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251515
08/10/18 06:31 PM
08/10/18 06:31 PM
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i had the elite hunter ice pick


"I ain't here for a long time, I'm here for a good time"
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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251744
08/10/18 11:25 PM
08/10/18 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Why are some 6.5mm 140's blowing up and some ice picking through?


Good question Chad. I have experienced both with 140gr VLD hunting bullets started at just over 2900fps and shots about 175 an 250. The Doe I mentioned in the other post that bullet penciled through a bit of lung then came apart while exiting through one rib. The one that blew up on the elk 2 inches further back would have been fine most likely but it hit tough leg mussel then heavier rib area and came apart from elk hid, tough leg mussel and what resistance the rib cage offered. Had it continued it punched through that it would have been a nice heart shot.

meat was blown away from the bone and there was a large cavity there of destruction but that was the last critter I will shoot those bullets at unless it is coyote or such.

Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251810
08/11/18 12:47 AM
08/11/18 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Why are some 6.5mm 140's blowing up and some ice picking through?


Gotta make sure the hollow point is hollow and not crimped or filled with lead. Use a thumb tack/push pin to check. Broz over on longrangeonly.com and longrangehunting.com forums has a ton of info about it and their terminal performance

Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251818
08/11/18 12:53 AM
08/11/18 12:53 AM
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I run 168’s in my 308 at 2710fps and 140’s in my 270 at 2830and 210’s in my 300 win at 2910fps. I have shot several deer and hogs with all 3. Always high shoulder on the deer and neck or behind the shoulder in the pigs. Never had one not expand/frag and come out the other side.
I did read of the penciling issue on another site a while back. Think it was the 140’s in the 6.5.
Could it just be a bad lot that got out?


Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251842
08/11/18 01:32 AM
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I’ve been using 6.5 130 vldh for the last 5 years with no issues and no tracking jobs.

Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7251855
08/11/18 01:51 AM
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Would be helpful to discuss velocity at impact rather than or in addition to muzzle velocity, if possible.

Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: jeffbird] #7251857
08/11/18 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Would be helpful to discuss velocity at impact rather than or in addition to muzzle velocity, if possible.


This. Muzzle velocity isn't the key indicator here: it's the impact velocity.


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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: syncerus] #7251868
08/11/18 02:07 AM
08/11/18 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: syncerus
Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Would be helpful to discuss velocity at impact rather than or in addition to muzzle velocity, if possible.


This. Muzzle velocity isn't the key indicator here: it's the impact velocity.


Many of us assumed everyone knew a higher muzzle velocity meant a higher impact velocity.

As was said earlier, slow it down at the muzzle, for close shots, or shoot high MV loads at farther impact distances.



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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: FiremanJG] #7251940
08/11/18 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: syncerus
Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Would be helpful to discuss velocity at impact rather than or in addition to muzzle velocity, if possible.


This. Muzzle velocity isn't the key indicator here: it's the impact velocity.


Many of us assumed everyone knew a higher muzzle velocity meant a higher impact velocity.

As was said earlier, slow it down at the muzzle, for close shots, or shoot high MV loads at farther impact distances.


Obviously, as well as distance, bc, and DA, but determining the actual velocity at impact may help reveal patterns of what causes fragmentation, pencilling, and good performance.

There are scenarios where a lower MV, still will have a higher impact velocity. Example changing MV as the only variable - 308 Win with 185 Juggs at say 2600 MV at 100 yards will have the same impact velocity, 2444 fps,
than the same bullet from a 300 Win Mag at 2900 at 285. Move the 300 Win Mag out to 350, and the impact velocity will be lower than the 308 at 100. So it is helpful to punch numbers to determine the actual impact velocity for this discussion.

And I know you and Chad know that just putting it out for general discussion.


Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7252053
08/11/18 01:02 PM
08/11/18 01:02 PM
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None of that is surprising. They are like any other delicate bullet - when they perform they perform spectacularly (which is most of the time). But when they fail, they fail spectacularly also. They also have the propensity of needlessly destroying a lot of meat.

I would personally never use them on anything but varmints. Why risk a failure when there are better options like the ELD-X?


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7252095
08/11/18 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
None of that is surprising. They are like any other delicate bullet - when they perform they perform spectacularly (which is most of the time). But when they fail, they fail spectacularly also. They also have the propensity of needlessly destroying a lot of meat.

I would personally never use them on anything but varmints. Why risk a failure when there are better options like the ELD-X?



My thoughts, nearly word for word.

For my money, a bullet that will perform without velocity limitations (at the top end, at least) and expand moderately and retain enough weight to pass through is the way to go. In my world, that's a Partition or Accubond. These may not drop critters in their tracks as often as a frangible bullet does, but I don't mind walking an extra 30 or 40 feet and I have had them DRT. If I wasn't stocked up on Noslers I'd probably try the Hornady.


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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: RiverRider] #7252115
08/11/18 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
None of that is surprising. They are like any other delicate bullet - when they perform they perform spectacularly (which is most of the time). But when they fail, they fail spectacularly also. They also have the propensity of needlessly destroying a lot of meat.

I would personally never use them on anything but varmints. Why risk a failure when there are better options like the ELD-X?



My thoughts, nearly word for word.

For my money, a bullet that will perform without velocity limitations (at the top end, at least) and expand moderately and retain enough weight to pass through is the way to go. In my world, that's a Partition or Accubond. These may not drop critters in their tracks as often as a frangible bullet does, but I don't mind walking an extra 30 or 40 feet and I have had them DRT. If I wasn't stocked up on Noslers I'd probably try the Hornady.


That’s me, but BC is important to many of the guys on here. ELD-X is designed for LR so I mentioned that one.

I never will understand the desire for visual “spectacular results”. If the shot is in a vital area with no bone encountered, will any other good bullet not also kill them just as dead? So why not also use a bullet that won’t splatter or disintegrate if one happens to hit a scapula or rib or need to make a quartering-to shot because the animal doesn’t present broadside?

Makes no sense to me.....


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7252118
08/11/18 01:59 PM
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I am not doubting these stories. I do not personally have them via the one rifle I have shooting VLD-Hunting bullets. Mule deer at 50 yards, both lungs, did run 50 yards, and pile up. I never lost line of sight on him. Bull elk (lungs) at 250, cow elk (lungs) at 465, cow elk (brain stem) 510. Yeah, big heavy animals, it ought to work. And I did not hit heavy bone on any of them. Heavy bone on the 50 yard mile deer, and I may have one of these stories.

However, a coyote was crossing my place in December and the 7 Rem Mag was what I had next to me. 300 yards, the coyote was nearly cut in half, so on the light body of a coyote, the bullet still expanded.

I am, admittedly, a bigger fan of the Hornady ELD-X, though. Got 500 brand new ones delivered just yesterday. wink



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Re: Berger VLD-H (hunting) bullet issues [Re: ChadTRG42] #7253176
08/12/18 05:26 PM
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If any one has 140g 6.5 VLD-H I will gladly take them off of your hands...


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