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Build a new military cartridge
#7246932
08/06/18 05:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,701
603Country
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So, the 223 is too puny and the 30-06 and 308 are too big. Let’s start from scratch. The case has to be bigger than the 223, but not too big. Can’t be too short and fat, for MG feeding.
After some thought on this, I’d probably recommend a minor redesign on the 220 Swift case. Get rid of the semi-rim and some of the taper and expand it to 24 or 25 caliber and develop a military style bullet for it. It’s already a very strong case and once was a military round.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7246939
08/06/18 05:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,544
redchevy
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Sounds like a 243 would be a much simpler solution.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7246948
08/06/18 05:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Already been solved. It is called the 6.5 Grendel. Fits in the current rifle, does more work.
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: J.G.]
#7247014
08/06/18 05:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,568
garyrapp55
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Already been solved. It is called the 6.5 Grendel. Fits in the current rifle, does more work. I have to agree, even tho I use a 6.8, the Grendel will do just as well up close and much better way out there.
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: garyrapp55]
#7247040
08/06/18 06:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,502
kmon11
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Already been solved. It is called the 6.5 Grendel. Fits in the current rifle, does more work. I have to agree, even tho I use a 6.8, the Grendel will do just as well up close and much better way out there. +2
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7247168
08/06/18 08:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,701
603Country
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We can do better than the Grendel.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7247183
08/06/18 08:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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We can do better than the Grendel. Not fitting in the M-16, I don't think so. Yes, if the military wants to go with all new rifles. But, it will be a hard sell to get them to go to an AR-10 platform for every pair of boots. Then you're back to the weight of a loaded mag. That's the reason they left the 7.62X51 in the first place. I did the math some months ago, and for a soldier or Marine to carry the same weight of ammo, but in 6.5 Grendel, he was carrying one more magazine and a total added weight of less than 2 pounds IIRC.
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7247254
08/06/18 09:29 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,502
kmon11
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For it to fit in a mil spec M16/M4 the Grendal can be beat perhaps by some of its wildcats like the fat-rat, grendelmax or a few 6mm ones but the original Grendel was designed for the most performance to fit in an AR15 platforn . Bill A did pretty good with it.
With factory ammo the 123gr Grendel passes the 243 in energy around the 400 yard mark at 500 yards and beyond it easily surpasses the 243 in that measure. Give it a 108gr fmj shaped like the matchking of the same weight and run it at 2600+ from a M4 for a game changer in energy delivered on target compared to a 556.
Last edited by kmon1; 08/06/18 09:38 PM.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7247264
08/06/18 09:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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Biggest issue imo is the military primarily dropping below a 16" in barrel length. That and bullet choice really affect the performance. If staying under 77gr a 6mm-223 would be my choice.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7247277
08/06/18 09:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,930
unclebubba
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Question is then, why has the Grendal not been adopted by the military yet?
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7247285
08/06/18 09:52 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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Longevity of parts. Bolts are the main concern.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: unclebubba]
#7247299
08/06/18 10:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Question is then, why has the Grendal not been adopted by the military yet? Why are Snipers just now moving from the 7.62X51 to the 6.5 Creedmoor, after it's been in use for over a decade? Bureaucratic red tape.
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: J.G.]
#7247302
08/06/18 10:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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Question is then, why has the Grendal not been adopted by the military yet? Why are Snipers just now moving from the 7.62X51 to the 6.5 Creedmoor, after it's been in use for over a decade? Bureaucratic red tape. Certain units have been running 260 in their gas guns for a good while. While not big army they a lot of times get things rolling in the right direction.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: dee]
#7247308
08/06/18 10:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Just been a couple of months anyone made an article of the move. Doesn't mean it didn't happen sooner.
Still, took em long enough!
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: J.G.]
#7247319
08/06/18 10:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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Just been a couple of months anyone made an article of the move. Doesn't mean it didn't happen sooner.
Still, took em long enough! Big army doesn't move fast at all.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: J.G.]
#7247329
08/06/18 10:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,930
unclebubba
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Question is then, why has the Grendal not been adopted by the military yet? Why are Snipers just now moving from the 7.62X51 to the 6.5 Creedmoor, after it's been in use for over a decade? Bureaucratic red tape. On that note, does the military refer to it as 6.5 Creedmoor, or 6.5x71?
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7247955
08/07/18 01:56 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,174
scottfromdallas
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They don't need a new cartridge, just let them use the best bullets in the 5.56 & 7.62x51. If it's war, don't send them in with FMJ or OTMs designed to punch paper.
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#7247966
08/07/18 02:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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They don't need a new cartridge, just let them use the best bullets in the 5.56 & 7.62x51. If it's war, don't send them in with FMJ or OTMs designed to punch paper. Several years ago, American Rifleman had an article "Taking back the half mile". The enemy figured out the 5.56mm was ineffective past 400 yards, so that's where they fought from. The article was revamping the "Designated Marksman" program. They brought M-14's out of storage and scoped them. Leaving one guy in the squad with the ability to engage the enemy farther out. Artillery and air support is not always available. Give everyone a 6.5 Grendel and focus more on rifle training, and everyone would be better off. One day of education would go a long way.
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7247993
08/07/18 02:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,522
RiverRider
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I think a 110 Accubond would be perfect...if only Nosler made them. Minimum impact velocity for expansion is 1300 fps on the LRAB.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: RiverRider]
#7248001
08/07/18 02:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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I think a 110 Accubond would be perfect...if only Nosler made them. Minimum impact velocity for expansion is 1300 fps on the LRAB. Can't use an expanding bullet in war. The objective is to kill the most people and destroy the most property, but you can't use an expanding bullet in rifles.
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: J.G.]
#7248036
08/07/18 03:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,174
scottfromdallas
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I think a 110 Accubond would be perfect...if only Nosler made them. Minimum impact velocity for expansion is 1300 fps on the LRAB. Can't use an expanding bullet in war. The objective is to kill the most people and destroy the most property, but you can't use an expanding bullet in rifles. That is the REAL problem. You can blow people with the grenades & missiles but you can't use an expanding bullet.
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7248086
08/07/18 03:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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It's dumb.
What do we expect from politicians?
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: dee]
#7248107
08/07/18 03:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,568
garyrapp55
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Biggest issue imo is the military primarily dropping below a 16" in barrel length. You're right, I forgot the Army likes that 14.5 inch (I think) barrel. Grendel would be handicapped. Here we are discussing this (again), did the military say they wanted to replace the M4?
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: J.G.]
#7248108
08/07/18 03:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,038
Vern1
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I think a 110 Accubond would be perfect...if only Nosler made them. Minimum impact velocity for expansion is 1300 fps on the LRAB. Can't use an expanding bullet in war. The objective is to kill the most people and destroy the most property, but you can't use an expanding bullet in rifles. Unless you are not NATO... People at war fighting for survival will shoot glass, nails, rocks, sharpened sticks and anything else they can stuff in the chamber. I don't think it's because they can't read the rules. Although I shoot a 6.8 at pigs hovering at around 100 yards, I'm thinking the 6.5 would be a better military round with the flatter trajectory at longer distances.
Cheers, Vern1 Texans since The Old 300 in 1824 NRA Lifetime Member
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Re: Build a new military cartridge
[Re: 603Country]
#7248186
08/07/18 04:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,701
603Country
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Forget I mentioned a redo of the 220 Swift case and neck up to 6.5mm or back to the original 6mm. I still think it would work great, and far better than the anemic Grendel, but my rethink draws me to the 30 Rem AR necked down to 6mm or 6.5mm.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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