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Mar 25th, 2012
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Build a new military cartridge #7246932
08/06/18 05:03 PM
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So, the 223 is too puny and the 30-06 and 308 are too big. Letís start from scratch. The case has to be bigger than the 223, but not too big. Canít be too short and fat, for MG feeding.

After some thought on this, Iíd probably recommend a minor redesign on the 220 Swift case. Get rid of the semi-rim and some of the taper and expand it to 24 or 25 caliber and develop a military style bullet for it. Itís already a very strong case and once was a military round.

Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7246939
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Sounds like a 243 would be a much simpler solution.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7246948
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Already been solved. It is called the 6.5 Grendel. Fits in the current rifle, does more work.



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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: FiremanJG] #7247014
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Already been solved. It is called the 6.5 Grendel. Fits in the current rifle, does more work.

I have to agree, even tho I use a 6.8, the Grendel will do just as well up close and much better way out there.

Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: garyrapp55] #7247040
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Originally Posted By: garyrapp55
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Already been solved. It is called the 6.5 Grendel. Fits in the current rifle, does more work.

I have to agree, even tho I use a 6.8, the Grendel will do just as well up close and much better way out there.


+2

Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7247168
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We can do better than the Grendel.

Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7247183
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Originally Posted By: 603Country
We can do better than the Grendel.


Not fitting in the M-16, I don't think so.

Yes, if the military wants to go with all new rifles. But, it will be a hard sell to get them to go to an AR-10 platform for every pair of boots. Then you're back to the weight of a loaded mag. That's the reason they left the 7.62X51 in the first place. I did the math some months ago, and for a soldier or Marine to carry the same weight of ammo, but in 6.5 Grendel, he was carrying one more magazine and a total added weight of less than 2 pounds IIRC.



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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7247254
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For it to fit in a mil spec M16/M4 the Grendal can be beat perhaps by some of its wildcats like the fat-rat, grendelmax or a few 6mm ones but the original Grendel was designed for the most performance to fit in an AR15 platforn . Bill A did pretty good with it.

With factory ammo the 123gr Grendel passes the 243 in energy around the 400 yard mark at 500 yards and beyond it easily surpasses the 243 in that measure. Give it a 108gr fmj shaped like the matchking of the same weight and run it at 2600+ from a M4 for a game changer in energy delivered on target compared to a 556.

Last edited by kmon1; 08/06/18 09:38 PM.
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7247264
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Biggest issue imo is the military primarily dropping below a 16" in barrel length. That and bullet choice really affect the performance. If staying under 77gr a 6mm-223 would be my choice.


"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7247277
08/06/18 09:44 PM
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Question is then, why has the Grendal not been adopted by the military yet?


Originally Posted By: txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7247285
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Longevity of parts. Bolts are the main concern.


"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: unclebubba] #7247299
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Originally Posted By: unclebubba
Question is then, why has the Grendal not been adopted by the military yet?



Why are Snipers just now moving from the 7.62X51 to the 6.5 Creedmoor, after it's been in use for over a decade?

Bureaucratic red tape.



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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: FiremanJG] #7247302
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: unclebubba
Question is then, why has the Grendal not been adopted by the military yet?



Why are Snipers just now moving from the 7.62X51 to the 6.5 Creedmoor, after it's been in use for over a decade?

Bureaucratic red tape.


Certain units have been running 260 in their gas guns for a good while. While not big army they a lot of times get things rolling in the right direction.


"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: dee] #7247308
08/06/18 10:16 PM
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Just been a couple of months anyone made an article of the move. Doesn't mean it didn't happen sooner.

Still, took em long enough!



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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: FiremanJG] #7247319
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Just been a couple of months anyone made an article of the move. Doesn't mean it didn't happen sooner.

Still, took em long enough!


Big army doesn't move fast at all.


"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: FiremanJG] #7247329
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: unclebubba
Question is then, why has the Grendal not been adopted by the military yet?



Why are Snipers just now moving from the 7.62X51 to the 6.5 Creedmoor, after it's been in use for over a decade?

Bureaucratic red tape.


On that note, does the military refer to it as 6.5 Creedmoor, or 6.5x71?


Originally Posted By: txhuntingguide
If I choose to hunt in a coon tail hat, a pink tootoo and hip waders that is my fine...
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7247955
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They don't need a new cartridge, just let them use the best bullets in the 5.56 & 7.62x51. If it's war, don't send them in with FMJ or OTMs designed to punch paper.


Scott
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: scottfromdallas] #7247966
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Originally Posted By: scottfromdallas
They don't need a new cartridge, just let them use the best bullets in the 5.56 & 7.62x51. If it's war, don't send them in with FMJ or OTMs designed to punch paper.


Several years ago, American Rifleman had an article "Taking back the half mile". The enemy figured out the 5.56mm was ineffective past 400 yards, so that's where they fought from. The article was revamping the "Designated Marksman" program. They brought M-14's out of storage and scoped them. Leaving one guy in the squad with the ability to engage the enemy farther out. Artillery and air support is not always available.

Give everyone a 6.5 Grendel and focus more on rifle training, and everyone would be better off. One day of education would go a long way.



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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7247993
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I think a 110 Accubond would be perfect...if only Nosler made them. Minimum impact velocity for expansion is 1300 fps on the LRAB.




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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: RiverRider] #7248001
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
I think a 110 Accubond would be perfect...if only Nosler made them. Minimum impact velocity for expansion is 1300 fps on the LRAB.


Can't use an expanding bullet in war.

The objective is to kill the most people and destroy the most property, but you can't use an expanding bullet in rifles. bang



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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: FiremanJG] #7248036
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
I think a 110 Accubond would be perfect...if only Nosler made them. Minimum impact velocity for expansion is 1300 fps on the LRAB.


Can't use an expanding bullet in war.

The objective is to kill the most people and destroy the most property, but you can't use an expanding bullet in rifles. bang


That is the REAL problem. You can blow people with the grenades & missiles but you can't use an expanding bullet.


Scott
Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7248086
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It's dumb.

What do we expect from politicians?



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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: dee] #7248107
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Originally Posted By: dee
Biggest issue imo is the military primarily dropping below a 16" in barrel length.

You're right, I forgot the Army likes that 14.5 inch (I think) barrel. Grendel would be handicapped.
Here we are discussing this (again), did the military say they wanted to replace the M4?

Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: FiremanJG] #7248108
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
I think a 110 Accubond would be perfect...if only Nosler made them. Minimum impact velocity for expansion is 1300 fps on the LRAB.


Can't use an expanding bullet in war.

The objective is to kill the most people and destroy the most property, but you can't use an expanding bullet in rifles. bang


Unless you are not NATO...

People at war fighting for survival will shoot glass, nails, rocks, sharpened sticks and anything else they can stuff in the chamber.
I don't think it's because they can't read the rules.

Although I shoot a 6.8 at pigs hovering at around 100 yards, I'm thinking the 6.5 would be a better military round with the flatter trajectory at longer distances.


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Re: Build a new military cartridge [Re: 603Country] #7248186
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Forget I mentioned a redo of the 220 Swift case and neck up to 6.5mm or back to the original 6mm. I still think it would work great, and far better than the anemic Grendel, but my rethink draws me to the 30 Rem AR necked down to 6mm or 6.5mm.

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