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Mar 25th, 2012
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HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. #7212018
06/29/18 11:22 PM
06/29/18 11:22 PM
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I have a 11 month old Black Lab. She loves the water and fetch. She will fetch anything I throw, Ball, Bumper, Duck looking bumper and even the cabelas pheasant feather covered training bumper BUT she will not put a dead bird in her mouth. How can I fix this? Tricks?

Thanks
Batesdc

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212050
06/29/18 11:50 PM
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I'd say force fetch but I am no pro.


Bobby Barnett

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212077
06/30/18 12:29 AM
06/30/18 12:29 AM
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First off, donít panic. I had the same issue with a dog that turned out to be incredible. I told the guys where I took her to get trained that she was bumper crazy but spits the real deal. He smiled, grabbed a duck, and got her all fired up about it. Within 5 min he had her bringing it back to him. I didnít think it was possible.

In my opinion FF is the way to go, and something Iíve come to understand over time. At first I fought the idea, but learned it will pay big dividends later...especially if you plan to get serious about the game. That said, it can be kinda tough to do yourself and will put some stress on the dog and you too. I would recommend having another person who has it down do it for you. Just like anything else, itís a step by step process and you need to know what to look for so you donít screw up a dog. Some dogs like my Molly figured the game out real quick... others take a bit longer. Either way... if your dog is nuts about retrieving it will all be okay up

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212117
06/30/18 01:59 AM
06/30/18 01:59 AM
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Ultimately force fetch is what the dog needs, however, I don't think I would start with that to fix this issue.

First off

Does the dog know the "hold" command?

Can you place a duck in her mouth and make her hold it?

Open her mouth and place the object in. Keep your hand under her chin and say "hold". Slowly move to taking your hand away. If she drops say "no" put it back in her mouth, say "hold". Might give a tap under the chin.

That's where I'd start.

Teach "hold" with other objects then move to ducks.

Once she gets used to just holding a duck in her mouth she'll be more likely to pick one up.

If she won't sit still for you to work on this then go back and work on obedience. "Sit" should be solid.


Last edited by BradyBuck; 06/30/18 02:04 AM.
Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212141
06/30/18 02:35 AM
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I'd start with a live pigeon and let her kill it. I wouldn't let her tear it up but play with it instead, take it from her then throw it.

I agree with everyone saying force fetch but before you get into that you need a dog that is obedient and understands what's going on. Like BB said, can't just jump into FF.

Good luck.


Originally Posted By: Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212143
06/30/18 02:39 AM
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Try putting duct tape around the middle of the bird, then throwing it like a happy bumper.
I've never had to force a dog on a bird, and don't think putting pressure (forcing) a dog on live birds is the right thing to do. I don't introduce birds until they're proficient on the double t, and don't have these problems.
Robby

Last edited by Birdhunter61; 06/30/18 02:44 AM.
Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212173
06/30/18 03:09 AM
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Tease her with a broke wing pigeon. Let it go when she gets riled up. If she doesnít grab it shoot her in the back of the head and get a new pup.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: scalebuster] #7212218
06/30/18 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: scalebuster
Tease her with a broke wing pigeon. Let it go when she gets riled up. If she doesnít grab it shoot her in the back of the head and get a new pup.


Scale, When I read your posts I seriously laugh out loud. I can't tell if you are serious or just going for the shock factor.

I recently was working with a dog for a friend. He wouldn't pick up live birds. He'd chase a clip wing pigeon, sniff it and come running back to me.

Dog had excellent obedience and a good hold on dead birds and bumpers. I took the live pigeon and put it in his mouth and had him hold it. That combined with a little competition from my dog who is bird crazy fixed him right up.

Not sure how the gun shot to the head would help him pick up birds but if after the first shot he still wouldn't pick up a bird would you shoot him again? smile ani

Last edited by BradyBuck; 06/30/18 04:56 AM.
Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212234
06/30/18 09:19 AM
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Thanks for the info guys. As far as obedience she has sit and come down solid. Working with stay. Haven't tried hold yet but I'll start today. Thanks again for the info.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212354
06/30/18 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: batesdc
Thanks for the info guys. As far as obedience she has sit and come down solid. Working with stay. Haven't tried hold yet but I'll start today. Thanks again for the info.


I donít know how lab guys do It but with my dog, I have no stay command. Sit means sit until I release him. No need to have them sit then stay.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212388
06/30/18 03:20 PM
06/30/18 03:20 PM
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Here is living proof that FF will work.





Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill







Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212514
06/30/18 06:47 PM
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Any chance you are using a pigeon? Feathers are fine and some dogs won't tough pigeons and doves but will retrieve other birds.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212702
06/30/18 11:45 PM
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Batesdc, I am in the same camp as Brady. I think force fetch is a powerful tool. I also think teaching hold first will help prepare the dog for what is to come. Here is something you may try. I have used this on multiple dogs and it has not failed to fire a dog up and get it to grab a bird.

Do a few water retrieves with a bumper then toss a live pigeon that you have pulled or clipped the flight feathers in the water.(it needs to be swimming water for the dog) As the dog approaches, the pigeon will respond with a spirited breast stroke. A short chase will ensue. I have yet to see a bird dog who likes the water, that can stand to let it get away. Don't say anything to the dog once you release it. Just let it play out. Meet the dog at the bank and love it up good. Let it hold the bird a while if it wants to. Ideally a bird dog should be introduced to birds very early and very often.

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 07/01/18 12:02 AM.

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Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212715
07/01/18 12:11 AM
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Start with a few frozen birds.



Last edited by bill oxner; 07/01/18 12:16 AM.

Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill







Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: bill oxner] #7212740
07/01/18 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
Here is living proof that FF will work.



I need a pic, while she holds, with toe pull or something to show force. grin

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: cbump] #7212767
07/01/18 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: cbump
Originally Posted By: batesdc
Thanks for the info guys. As far as obedience she has sit and come down solid. Working with stay. Haven't tried hold yet but I'll start today. Thanks again for the info.


I donít know how lab guys do It but with my dog, I have no stay command. Sit means sit until I release him. No need to have them sit then stay.


Yup


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212768
07/01/18 01:43 AM
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No need for a fetch AND hold either.


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: MS1454] #7212813
07/01/18 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: MS1454
Originally Posted By: cbump
Originally Posted By: batesdc
Thanks for the info guys. As far as obedience she has sit and come down solid. Working with stay. Haven't tried hold yet but I'll start today. Thanks again for the info.


I donít know how lab guys do It but with my dog, I have no stay command. Sit means sit until I release him. No need to have them sit then stay.


Yup

I respectfully disagree.
It depends on what you do with your dog. If you want to have the dog stay in the boat, stay is often handy, often overlayed with a hand signal. While I agree that "sit" means "sit till released", there are also times where my dog is under no other command and I want him to stay. It may be as simple as leaving a gate or door open that I don't want him to go through, or simply to stay in the bed of the truck, or staying on the bank rather than following me into the decoys while I set the spread.... most upland hunters use "whoa" in lieu of "stay". My point is it is a useful command for my hunting dogs.


Last edited by Smokey Bear; 07/01/18 03:08 AM.

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Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: Smokey Bear] #7212816
07/01/18 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
Originally Posted By: MS1454
Originally Posted By: cbump
Originally Posted By: batesdc
Thanks for the info guys. As far as obedience she has sit and come down solid. Working with stay. Haven't tried hold yet but I'll start today. Thanks again for the info.


I donít know how lab guys do It but with my dog, I have no stay command. Sit means sit until I release him. No need to have them sit then stay.


Yup

I respectfully disagree.
It depends on what you do with your dog. If you want to have the dog stay in the boat, stay is often handy, often overlayed with a hand signal. While I agree that "sit" means "sit till released", there are also times where my dog is under no other command and I want him to stay. It may be as simple as leaving a gate or door open that I don't want him to go through, or simply to stay in the bed of the truck, or staying on the bank rather than following me into the decoys while I set the spread.... most upland hunters use "whoa" in lieu of "stay". My point is it is a useful command for my hunting dogs.



You are talking about a totally different command.

No need to say "sit" "stay"

However I agree another command such as "place" or "stay" can mean to stay in an area but not to sit and stay.

I think everyone previously were just suggesting that there is no need to say "sit stay" but either way does it really matter?

I only use "sit" but if someone wants to add "stay" it doesn't matter.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: MS1454] #7212835
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Originally Posted By: MS1454
No need for a fetch AND hold either.


My opinion is contrary to this. Separating fetch and hold simplifies training and then when they are linked, confusion is minimized. When you force fetch a dog, "fetch" is a motion command. It is expanded on in force to pile and eventually overlaid with "back" to send the dog. "Hold" is a static command the dog must comply with in FF, after it has fetched, in order to avoid an ear pinch or whatever pressure that is administered for "fetch". In FF as soon as the dog has the object in its mouth, the pressure stops, but it must continue to hold, till asked to release. Again they are linked. Breaking things down avoids confusion and makes it easier for the dog. In turn the dog will have an easier time with force fetch. Hold will also be useful in pile work. Many dogs want to "pile shop" or switch dummies in lining and T drills. A simple "hold" tells the dog it is not OK. No pressure needed. It also plays well in the field if the dog attempts to switch birds. Particularly if he is carrying a cripple. "Hold" and a come in whistle. Retrieve completed. Effective communication with no pressure, and the dog learns what we want. By using a "less is more" approach we develop a clearer line of understanding for training. The end result will be the dog learns that "fetch" means fetch and hold until given a release command in training, and we have a means to address mistakes before things come off the rails. Thus setting the dog up to succeed and minimizing the pressure required to get through the force fetch process.


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Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: MS1454] #7212853
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Originally Posted By: MS1454
No need for a fetch AND hold either.


While in the end maybe not, teaching "hold" first helps tremendously during the FF process. If the dog has a good hold prior to FF it makes it much easier in that you are not getting into a battle after the dog fetches the bumper and can praise and enjoy the success of a good fetch response.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212873
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Quote:
"I donít know how lab guys do It but with my dog, I have no stay command. Sit means sit until I release him. No need to have them sit then stay."

I interpreted this post as no "stay" command is taught. I also train "sit" as: "sit till released", so maybe we are on the same page. I train "stay" independent of other commands. It is useful for my hunting dogs, particularly useful in tracking work, and "whoa" as a yet more refined form of "stay" for upland work. Particularly while training steady to wing, shot, and fall, with both a pointed bird, or hunting upland with a flushing dog like a lab.

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 07/01/18 04:56 AM.

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Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7212876
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The only reason I mentioned It was because BB said this ďIf she won't sit still for you to work on this then go back and work on obedience.Ē and the op followed It up with sit being solid, still working on stay.

So I took that as no, the dog isnít sitting still for him. Which led me to think heís teach sit and stay and not just sit. And sit isnít really solid.

I could have interpreted that all wrong though.

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: cbump] #7212891
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Originally Posted By: cbump
The only reason I mentioned It was because BB said this ďIf she won't sit still for you to work on this then go back and work on obedience.Ē and the op followed It up with sit being solid, still working on stay.

So I took that as no, the dog isnít sitting still for him. Which led me to think heís teach sit and stay and not just sit. And sit isnít really solid.

I could have interpreted that all wrong though.


Yes, I should clarify. When I say a dog has a solid sit it means they sit and don't move until told otherwise.

Now if that always happens is another story...

Re: HELP...Lab wont put a bird in her mouth. [Re: batesdc] #7226175
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Did you ever do any work to build the dog's prey drive? Did you let the dog hunt up live birds with no handling or allow him to get the taste of one?

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