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Mar 25th, 2012
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My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! #7210088
06/27/18 07:32 PM
06/27/18 07:32 PM
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Ok, so you are a little correct, and 100% wrong at the same time. I have heard this MANY times from shooters. Yes, you are correct because the crappy factory ammo you are currently shooting, your rifle does not shoot it well with this particular bullet. Now, it does NOT mean that your rifle dislikes this bullet!!!! bang What it does not like is the load used with that bullet. Meaning the powder and powder charge (often very large powder variation inside) loaded with that bullet.

Now, I can take the same exact bullet and load it in the sweet spot with a match grade powder and that same bullet will shoot very good. I have done this MANY times. Recently I had a customer who tried several different factory ammo options in his 300 Win Mag with a 180 grain Accubond. He really wanted to shoot the 180 AB. He brought the rifle to me and said don't shoot this bullet, my rifle doesn't like this bullet. bang I repeated what I just wrote. I explained to him if that is the bullet you want to shoot, then let me load this bullet for you. When I was done with the load work up, the rifle shot freakin' great with the 180 Accubond.

So again today, a guy wants some match grade 270 Win ammo for an upcoming elk hunt. I recommend the 140 Accubond (AB) (among other bullets), but he tells me his gun doesn't like the AB. bang No. Not correct!

So please, for the love of things Holy.... Just because your rifle doesn't shoot well with one bullet, does not mean that your rifle does not like that bullet. Now, I feel better! laugh






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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210104
06/27/18 07:38 PM
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My 6.5 Creedmore loves Hornady ballistic tips.



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210107
06/27/18 07:40 PM
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Agree with only one caveat being twist rate.


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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210138
06/27/18 08:13 PM
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So as some one who doesn't reload why does one gun "like" some ammo and another one doesn't. I'm not trying to get too technical just wondering.

Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: bholt] #7210156
06/27/18 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: bholt
So as some one who doesn't reload why does one gun "like" some ammo and another one doesn't. I'm not trying to get too technical just wondering.


It's a good question. When I work up a load in a rifle, I'm tuning the ammo the barrel harmonics. For example, here's a target from a 300 Norma Mag I shot the other day. This was shot at either 200 or 300 yards, I can't remember. You can see that Loads A, B, C, and D didn't shoot all that great. (Load A did ok, with one round out, and Load D did ok with one round out.) But Load E shot nice and tight with a 13 fps ES. ES is extreme spread, which is the difference between the highest and lowest velocity of that load. Go one load up, Load F, and groups open up again. When you have good ammo that is loaded to the sweet spot and the powder charges are very consistent (to within .02 grains), the ammo will shoot very well. And these loads have a .3 or .4 grain difference between each test load. And all these loads were match grade loaded to tight tolerances. The rifle seemed to like only a few of them.

It's easy to get a rifle to not shoot well, even a high-end rifle. Often times factory ammo has very large variations in their powder charges inside the case. I have pulled enough factory bullets out and weighed their powder charges and seen as high as 2.2 grains variation on about 30 rounds. 2.2 grains!!! In my test loads on that 300 Norma, I'm varying each load by about .4 grains. I'm covering an area in 2.4 grains of powder charge variation with that bullet. I've seen factory ammo as high as 2.2 grains in a few rounds! It's crazy bad. Also, factory ammo has their bullets seated deep in the case to fit and feed out of every firearm chambered in that round. I'm loading for just one, and can seat the bullet where I want to optimize the accuracy. Also the ammo could be out of the barrel harmonics and your rifle just not like particular load. If I were shooting Load F in that rifle, groups wouldn't be all that great.





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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: FiremanJG] #7210179
06/27/18 08:41 PM
06/27/18 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
My 6.5 Creedmore loves Hornady ballistic tips.


I wish I could post up some profanity laced pictures to you!!! LOL! lol444



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210211
06/27/18 09:16 PM
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Iíll add another caveat -

Pulled bullets bought from bulk resellers, I donít know what it is about the 150 grain Speer Deepcurls I bought for my 270AR but it definitely doesnít like the bullet

I tried 4 or 5 different powders and 2 different primers and could never get it to group less than 1.5Ē on 5 shot groups, nothing consistent.

Loaded up some 140 gr Berger VLDs instead and sub MOA it is....


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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210244
06/27/18 09:56 PM
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I would have to say that some bullets are "easier" to tune to a barrel than others, just saying. I will stop there.



Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210266
06/27/18 10:28 PM
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Chad,
what do you find makes the most significant difference? Powder selection? Seating depth?

Tangent ogives sure are easier to dial in than secant ogives.

Also Barnes TTSX and most Sierras are very easy to optimize.

Berger Hybrids and Noslers also are not finicky, except for the ABLR is giving terrible results in a 338 LM.

Seems like you once suggested trying a faster powder to tighten things up, or maybe it was John Barsness?


Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210279
06/27/18 10:40 PM
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I know you asked Chad. I'll throw in my vote, as well.

#1 most important thing is the powder charge. The right charge tuned to the barrel, and a consistent reproduction of that charge.



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210295
06/27/18 10:55 PM
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^^ 100%. The powder charge is the most important thing in the ammo, IMO. I can vary the seating depth a little bit and it still shoot very good. But if I load ammo out of the accuracy node for that powder, it won't matter where I seat the bullet.

I'd say powder charge #1, then the correct powder, consistent brass prep, bullet type (secant or tangent ogive).

If you have a rifle that is stubborn and difficult to dial in, you can drop down to a faster burn rate powder to increase the sweet spot window. What I mean by that is, say you have a round you are loading for with a slow burning powder (on the slower side with the bullet selected) that is not shooting well. This slower burning powder will have a narrow accuracy window. If you go to a faster burning powder and drop your powder charge down some, it will open up a much larger sweet spot, or accuracy window, of where that combination will shoot well. Find the accuracy with a faster burning powder is much easier, but you generally give up some speed to do this.



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210296
06/27/18 10:55 PM
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so your saying you can get a round nose bullet to shoot just as great as a pointed boat tail



Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: GLC] #7210297
06/27/18 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: GLC
I would have to say that some bullets are "easier" to tune to a barrel than others, just saying. I will stop there.


100% correct.



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: vanguard] #7210303
06/27/18 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: vanguard
so your saying you can get a round nose bullet to shoot just as great as a pointed boat tail


If both are fully stable, yes, you should. I had a customer send me a picture of a group he shot with my 6.5 Creedmoor subs with a 160 grain Hornady RN. It was one ragged hole at 100 yards. Now, these are subsonic rounds, and generally less stable than a full power load and do not shoot as well. But with a little effort to dial these loads in, they shoot very well. Increase the speed and get the bullet more stable, it should shoot very well. The only draw back is most RN bullets are not match grade. Comparing a $.20 round nose to a match grade Berger that is $.45 each, really isn't a fair comparison, though.



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210338
06/27/18 11:49 PM
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Fully understand the importance of charge weight and testing with ladders or OCW, but have owned some rifles that thorough testing with some bullets never worked. Then changed bullets and they were not picky at all.

Anyone worked out a good load for the 265 ABLR in 338 LM?

Been trying H1000 which usually is great with 250ís in the Lapua.

Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210386
06/28/18 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: vanguard
so your saying you can get a round nose bullet to shoot just as great as a pointed boat tail


If both are fully stable, yes, you should. I had a customer send me a picture of a group he shot with my 6.5 Creedmoor subs with a 160 grain Hornady RN. It was one ragged hole at 100 yards. Now, these are subsonic rounds, and generally less stable than a full power load and do not shoot as well. But with a little effort to dial these loads in, they shoot very well. Increase the speed and get the bullet more stable, it should shoot very well. The only draw back is most RN bullets are not match grade. Comparing a $.20 round nose to a match grade Berger that is $.45 each, really isn't a fair comparison, though.


so their is a difference. some bullets shoot better in some guns. dont care what you say. my hornet is a prime example, 45 gr hornet bullets meh... 50 gr noslers or 50 gr soft points and wow.



Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210389
06/28/18 12:48 AM
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My opinion hasnít changed since the last time this topic came up

Originally Posted By: Ritter
I agree 100%.

When I decide it's time to re-barrel an existing rifle or buy/build a new rifle I always start with the bullet.

I'll decide what I want the rifle to do and what bullet will work best. After that I pick a velocity that I want to push the bullet at and the final decision is what cartridge will get me the results I want. There are a few other details like how much powder will I have to burn, how quick the throat will wear, ease of finding or forming the brass, etc., but the bullet is where it starts.

I even go as far as only using Hodgdon Extreme powders to minimize velocity changes due to temperature changes.

If it were true that some bullets just won't work in some rifles then I could easily be out some big cash every time I put together a new rifle.

Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: Ritter] #7210414
06/28/18 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ritter
My opinion hasnít changed since the last time this topic came up

Originally Posted By: Ritter
I agree 100%.

When I decide it's time to re-barrel an existing rifle or buy/build a new rifle I always start with the bullet.

I'll decide what I want the rifle to do and what bullet will work best. After that I pick a velocity that I want to push the bullet at and the final decision is what cartridge will get me the results I want. There are a few other details like how much powder will I have to burn, how quick the throat will wear, ease of finding or forming the brass, etc., but the bullet is where it starts.

I even go as far as only using Hodgdon Extreme powders to minimize velocity changes due to temperature changes.

If it were true that some bullets just won't work in some rifles then I could easily be out some big cash every time I put together a new rifle.


Great post. Very accurate.

All of my rifles were designed around a bullet weight, more specifically a bullet length. Get the twist rate needed to stabilize said bullet, then go to the best, or one of the best powders for a cartridge. I have my "go to's", some people use other things. And I too, only use temp stable powders.

7mm-08> H-Varget
7mm Rem Mag> H-Retumbo
6.5 Creedmoor> was H-4350, but I am forced to try IMR-4451 now

A few examples.



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: FiremanJG] #7210447
06/28/18 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG


Great post. Very accurate.

All of my rifles were designed around a bullet weight, more specifically a bullet length. Get the twist rate needed to stabilize said bullet, then go to the best, or one of the best powders for a cartridge. I have my "go to's", some people use other things. And I too, only use temp stable powders.

7mm-08> H-Varget
7mm Rem Mag> H-Retumbo
6.5 Creedmoor> was H-4350, but I am forced to try IMR-4451 now

A few examples.


Have you ever tried Re16 as a replacement for H4350?


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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: RiverRider] #7210449
06/28/18 02:01 AM
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No. I don't know which ones are temp stable and which ones are not, so I never have dove into the Re powders.



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210461
06/28/18 02:17 AM
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16, 23, 26, for sure, maybe there are slower temp tolerant Reloder series that I never think about. I have no need for anything slower than 26 except possibly my .264 where 7828 works well and I will play with Retumbo a bit down the road when my current batch of 7828 ammo is depleted. I'm thinking there's a newer temp tolerant Alliant powder slower than Re26 but I could be wrong about that.

I used to think Re15 and Re17 were supposed to be temperature tolerant (probably believed something on the internet I shouldn't have believed, but who knows because I sure as hell can't remember where I read it). I found out the almost-hard-way about Re17. Re15 seems to be a little more predictable in my experience and I don't hear the same kinds of stories about it that I do hear about Re17.

The newest Alliant powders are very good.


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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210477
06/28/18 02:29 AM
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I've got one running on an Alliant, per Chad's recommendation. Only been using it for 8 months, and have not shot that particular one in this heat. It'll be taken out next week, for more data gathering. See if it runs now, like it did in January.



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Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210481
06/28/18 02:35 AM
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Alliant makes RL 33, but have no first hand experience with it to report.

Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210521
06/28/18 03:22 AM
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I've heard RL16 can get some great speeds on the 140 bullets in 6.5 CM. Thought about trying it, but I don't shoot far enough to really care that much about pushing the speed envelope.

RR - do you know if RL16 is temp stable?

Re: My rifle doesn't like this bullet!!! [Re: ChadTRG42] #7210723
06/28/18 01:50 PM
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Yes, according to credible folks it is and I've seen no reports claiming otherwise. I use it to push 180s in .30-06, but I haven't purposely done anything to qualify its temp stability. I may have the data in my handload logs without realizing it. I can check to see.


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