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Mar 25th, 2012
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Question on raising just bucks #7200143
06/17/18 03:58 PM
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I have 68 acres and I'm curious if I just raised a few whitetail bucks, no does, no breeding, would I still have to get the permits to do this like ranches need to have to breed whitetails?

My thought is to buy male fawns and see what they look like at 5 years old, then hopefully find somebody that wants to buy them for their HF ranch. Kind of a stocker operation, except keeping them longer then a cattle ranch does.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7200171
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I have no idea on WT permitting. But I would think you would be better off doing that with a different species. You don't know what the permit system for WT is going to be in 5 years or if you would be able to legally sell them. The cost of a good WT fawn plus the feeding for 5 years may not be even a break even deal. I personally would do it with something like Ibex or one of the better sheep breeds. A couple of weeks ago on WB they had 3 what looked to be 2 year old Nubian Ibex males. They sold for around $2700 each which I thought was a very cheap price. You buy them and keep and feed them for another probably 2 years and you could double your money.









Last edited by don k; 06/17/18 05:03 PM.
Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7200186
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Thank you Don, that's also something I've been thinking about. Part of it would just to be able to live and have the animals around us. Part of it would be to see if we can make a buck raising something other then cattle, which I don't have enough land for, or any desire to do. I've spoken to a few people about ibex and one of the positives to just raising stockers and not breeding is that I could actually have Nubian and Persian ibex. My thinking about going for five years is that even if I got a lesser quality whitetail buck, a five year old forked horn, or something that most would pass on, would be a very unique trophy when it's five years old.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7200232
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Originally Posted By: EddieWalker
Thank you Don, that's also something I've been thinking about. Part of it would just to be able to live and have the animals around us. Part of it would be to see if we can make a buck raising something other then cattle, which I don't have enough land for, or any desire to do. I've spoken to a few people about ibex and one of the positives to just raising stockers and not breeding is that I could actually have Nubian and Persian ibex. My thinking about going for five years is that even if I got a lesser quality whitetail buck, a five year old forked horn, or something that most would pass on, would be a very unique trophy when it's five years old.
The only thing that hurts you on getting stockers is your location. Down here most of the animals on WB are in this area. Plus Raz has an auction once a month and the YO twice a year. I also used to raise cattle. I found I could make a heck of a lot more money raising Ibex than I ever did on cattle. The most important thing when raising stockers wether it be cattle or Ibex or anything else is study what good animals look like. It doesn't cost any more to feed a good animal than it does an inferior one. But the good one will bring a lot more money in the end.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7200293
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all the hustle of owning whitetail will still apply. when are you going to grab some of these billies iíve got eddie?!? smile

Last edited by Aaron-Ibex; 06/17/18 07:25 PM.

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Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: Aaron-Ibex] #7200423
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You could buy whitetail with a simple triple t permit. But you couldnít live sell any without a breeders permit.

Getting into anything with whitetail is a crapshoot now thanks to our tpwdís cwd ignorance.

Last edited by therancher; 06/17/18 10:11 PM.

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Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: Aaron-Ibex] #7200534
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Originally Posted By: Aaron-Ibex
all the hustle of owning whitetail will still apply. when are you going to grab some of these billies iíve got eddie?!? smile


You are who I was thinking of when I said Persian Ibex. Not having females would allow me to have a few of yours, and still have a few other types of goats. Maybe even Markhor!!!

Obviously I don't know what I'm doing, but at least this way I might enjoy the learning process. One thing that I've learned is that I do not want anything to do with breeding, or birthing anything except chickens.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: therancher] #7200537
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Originally Posted By: therancher
You could buy whitetail with a simple triple t permit. But you couldnít live sell any without a breeders permit.

Getting into anything with whitetail is a crapshoot now thanks to our tpwdís cwd ignorance.


Thanks, that's what I was wondering. I think there is still money to be made on 150 to 180 class bucks with decent mass. Especially with so many breeders out there that are not able to raise all of their bucks. I'll take the ones nobody else wants and see what age does for them.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7200539
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Not sure of all the regulations these days when it comes to doing what you are wanting to do. You can buy WT bucks to turn loose on your land as long as it is HF with just a release site setup, no permit. You would not be able to catch them to sell them without the proper permits. I know they used to have a size limit on pen size in breeding facilities years ago. So to do a breeding facility you would have to permit the whole place as one facility. You would then need to renew the permit every year and test the proper amount of death losses to remain movement qualified. You would need to file paper work on herd numbers every year. The biggest issue would be if you had some bucks die and you did not get them tested for CWD you then would not be able to resell any of the remaining ones. Once you licensed the facility as a breeding operation you could not hunt them in the breeding enclosure. If you are just wanting to look at bucks and not resell them then you can buy what you want and release them inside the HF area. You could then hunt them. If you wanted to TTT them off with a permit you would have to test a % of them before you can TTT them off. The only way to test them would be by shooting some and do the CWD testing after. You could do the TTT permits to move in deer but you are going to have to get the paperwork done to move deer in. Then you would have to find a ranch willing to catch and allow you to take the bucks only. That will be the difficult part since most ranches only TTT off does. Very few ranches TTT off bucks but there are a few that do. You aren't getting the top end bucks. For what you are wanting the best thing to do would be just buy some bucks from a breeder to turn out to watch them grow.
Exotics would be easier to deal with and not nearly as many regulations today, that could change in the future. If I were going to do exotics I would key in on one species that you like and would get you money back so you could enjoy it. If it were me I would stay away from the common exotics and key in on one species that is not as common but still has an upside for sales.



Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: don k] #7200542
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Originally Posted By: don k
Originally Posted By: EddieWalker
Thank you Don, that's also something I've been thinking about. Part of it would just to be able to live and have the animals around us. Part of it would be to see if we can make a buck raising something other then cattle, which I don't have enough land for, or any desire to do. I've spoken to a few people about ibex and one of the positives to just raising stockers and not breeding is that I could actually have Nubian and Persian ibex. My thinking about going for five years is that even if I got a lesser quality whitetail buck, a five year old forked horn, or something that most would pass on, would be a very unique trophy when it's five years old.
The only thing that hurts you on getting stockers is your location. Down here most of the animals on WB are in this area. Plus Raz has an auction once a month and the YO twice a year. I also used to raise cattle. I found I could make a heck of a lot more money raising Ibex than I ever did on cattle. The most important thing when raising stockers wether it be cattle or Ibex or anything else is study what good animals look like. It doesn't cost any more to feed a good animal than it does an inferior one. But the good one will bring a lot more money in the end.


Thank you. I'm hoping that with a little asking around, that I'll be able to find suppliers in the Easter part of the state. I know of a few ranches that have hunts on them, and they are always looking for shooters. Hopefully it's just a matter of meeting more people and spending some time learning all that I can.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7200717
06/18/18 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: EddieWalker
Originally Posted By: therancher
You could buy whitetail with a simple triple t permit. But you couldnít live sell any without a breeders permit.

Getting into anything with whitetail is a crapshoot now thanks to our tpwdís cwd ignorance.


Thanks, that's what I was wondering. I think there is still money to be made on 150 to 180 class bucks with decent mass. Especially with so many breeders out there that are not able to raise all of their bucks. I'll take the ones nobody else wants and see what age does for them.


I would recommend you try to kill them on site then. If you sell them live you're opening a can of worms that is morphing daily, and potentially could wipe out your entire operation.

People are knocking each other down trying to get OUT of the whitetail live sale business. The path getting in is a ghost town.


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Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7200827
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Really appreciate your advice and think that I'll follow it. I don't have anything into this other then time clearing land and making improvements. Since this would just be a hobby, avoiding as much government involvement as possible would be my number one goal. I'm also trying to avoid the Noah's Ark syndrome and not have two of everything, but that's really what I'm wanting. Lots of variety, which is how I got to thinking about not breeding, and just buying male fawns. I have plenty of time to put more thought into this. Thank you.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7200952
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One other thing to consider when getting bucks from a deer breeder is that if CWD was found in that breeders pens that it could effect you also. Lot of scenarios involving CWD if it were found in the facility you get your deer from that could also effect you down the road. Not that it is likely to happen just if it did happen it could be a problem for you.
There was an exotic breeder in the Weimer area that was raising several different types of sheep in separate pens. He had Red Sheep, Mouflon, Armenians and IIRC also had Black Buck in each of his breeding pens. He was strictly breeding to sell stockers or breeding stock.



Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: stxranchman] #7201326
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
One other thing to consider when getting bucks from a deer breeder is that if CWD was found in that breeders pens that it could effect you also. Lot of scenarios involving CWD if it were found in the facility you get your deer from that could also effect you down the road. Not that it is likely to happen just if it did happen it could be a problem for you.
There was an exotic breeder in the Weimer area that was raising several different types of sheep in separate pens. He had Red Sheep, Mouflon, Armenians and IIRC also had Black Buck in each of his breeding pens. He was strictly breeding to sell stockers or breeding stock.


Exactly right. And I don't believe it is as far fetched as most people think. Heck somehow CWD jumped from here to Norway... lol.

Had a group leasing my south texas place that wanted to release some bred does. I made sure they understood that if TPWD killed all the deer on the place that they would need to sign a 10 year deal to pay me full lease price even if there wasn't one deer on the place.

Eddie I know others know the high end sheep and goats much better than I do. But Blackbuck males bought as yearlings or fawns are cheap and grow fast and don't eat much. And there are no restrictions on dealing them. They aren't high dollar animals but they are consistent and cheap to raise out. Bucks only.

Last edited by therancher; 06/18/18 08:45 PM.

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Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: therancher] #7201413
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
One other thing to consider when getting bucks from a deer breeder is that if CWD was found in that breeders pens that it could effect you also. Lot of scenarios involving CWD if it were found in the facility you get your deer from that could also effect you down the road. Not that it is likely to happen just if it did happen it could be a problem for you.
There was an exotic breeder in the Weimer area that was raising several different types of sheep in separate pens. He had Red Sheep, Mouflon, Armenians and IIRC also had Black Buck in each of his breeding pens. He was strictly breeding to sell stockers or breeding stock.


Exactly right. And I don't believe it is as far fetched as most people think. Heck somehow CWD jumped from here to Norway... lol.

Had a group leasing my south texas place that wanted to release some bred does. I made sure they understood that if TPWD killed all the deer on the place that they would need to sign a 10 year deal to pay me full lease price even if there wasn't one deer on the place.

Eddie I know others know the high end sheep and goats much better than I do. But Blackbuck males bought as yearlings or fawns are cheap and grow fast and don't eat much. And there are no restrictions on dealing them. They aren't high dollar animals but they are consistent and cheap to raise out. Bucks only.
Very true Rancher. A lot depends on how deep he wants to get into it. BB are not expensive to be bought at a young age. But then again they do not bring a whole lot at reaching say a shootable size of around 18 inches. The difference in a 18 inch at an auction and a 18 inch to shoot is really not that much. So what would be better? Buy 18 inch and really baby them to say 23 inches or buy 6 inch yearlings and keep them until they got to 18 inches? What would bring the best return?

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: don k] #7201433
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Originally Posted By: don k
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
One other thing to consider when getting bucks from a deer breeder is that if CWD was found in that breeders pens that it could effect you also. Lot of scenarios involving CWD if it were found in the facility you get your deer from that could also effect you down the road. Not that it is likely to happen just if it did happen it could be a problem for you.
There was an exotic breeder in the Weimer area that was raising several different types of sheep in separate pens. He had Red Sheep, Mouflon, Armenians and IIRC also had Black Buck in each of his breeding pens. He was strictly breeding to sell stockers or breeding stock.


Exactly right. And I don't believe it is as far fetched as most people think. Heck somehow CWD jumped from here to Norway... lol.

Had a group leasing my south texas place that wanted to release some bred does. I made sure they understood that if TPWD killed all the deer on the place that they would need to sign a 10 year deal to pay me full lease price even if there wasn't one deer on the place.

Eddie I know others know the high end sheep and goats much better than I do. But Blackbuck males bought as yearlings or fawns are cheap and grow fast and don't eat much. And there are no restrictions on dealing them. They aren't high dollar animals but they are consistent and cheap to raise out. Bucks only.
Very true Rancher. A lot depends on how deep he wants to get into it. BB are not expensive to be bought at a young age. But then again they do not bring a whole lot at reaching say a shootable size of around 18 inches. The difference in a 18 inch at an auction and a 18 inch to shoot is really not that much. So what would be better? Buy 18 inch and really baby them to say 23 inches or buy 6 inch yearlings and keep them until they got to 18 inches? What would bring the best return?

Which ever one would be subject to the least amount of death losses. Blackbuck in my experience do not handle stress very well at all. I would think the younger ones would grow out better if they are all close to the same age. The older ones are more likely to sustain horn breakage, which would severely drop their value. Selling 18" might return more on your investment over a long term as they grow rapidly to 18" then tend to slow down a bit after that, like most horned animals do. Growing out quicker would allow more turn of numbers in shorter time frame. IME, I have seen a higher % males over 20" with broken horns than those under 20".



Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: stxranchman] #7201456
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: don k
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
One other thing to consider when getting bucks from a deer breeder is that if CWD was found in that breeders pens that it could effect you also. Lot of scenarios involving CWD if it were found in the facility you get your deer from that could also effect you down the road. Not that it is likely to happen just if it did happen it could be a problem for you.
There was an exotic breeder in the Weimer area that was raising several different types of sheep in separate pens. He had Red Sheep, Mouflon, Armenians and IIRC also had Black Buck in each of his breeding pens. He was strictly breeding to sell stockers or breeding stock.


Exactly right. And I don't believe it is as far fetched as most people think. Heck somehow CWD jumped from here to Norway... lol.

Had a group leasing my south texas place that wanted to release some bred does. I made sure they understood that if TPWD killed all the deer on the place that they would need to sign a 10 year deal to pay me full lease price even if there wasn't one deer on the place.

Eddie I know others know the high end sheep and goats much better than I do. But Blackbuck males bought as yearlings or fawns are cheap and grow fast and don't eat much. And there are no restrictions on dealing them. They aren't high dollar animals but they are consistent and cheap to raise out. Bucks only.
Very true Rancher. A lot depends on how deep he wants to get into it. BB are not expensive to be bought at a young age. But then again they do not bring a whole lot at reaching say a shootable size of around 18 inches. The difference in a 18 inch at an auction and a 18 inch to shoot is really not that much. So what would be better? Buy 18 inch and really baby them to say 23 inches or buy 6 inch yearlings and keep them until they got to 18 inches? What would bring the best return?

Which ever one would be subject to the least amount of death losses. Blackbuck in my experience do not handle stress very well at all. I would think the younger ones would grow out better if they are all close to the same age. The older ones are more likely to sustain horn breakage, which would severely drop their value. Selling 18" might return more on your investment over a long term as they grow rapidly to 18" then tend to slow down a bit after that, like most horned animals do. Growing out quicker would allow more turn of numbers in shorter time frame. IME, I have seen a higher % males over 20" with broken horns than those under 20".


Yep. I was told if one gets to 20+ you better get him shot. I have blackbuck sustaining herd mainly to feed yotes hoping they get the ever present young blackbuck before they get the more valuable whitetail fawns.

I wouldnít waste time $ to raise past 18Ē.

Didnít think about this earlier but scimitars are something to think about. Both male and female are trophies and they are one of the most robust exotics. Iíve never lost one. They readily eat hay so you can supplement rather cheaply. Only drawbacks would be size of place and if itís in East Texas youíre gonna have hood rot issues over time.


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Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: therancher] #7201470
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: don k
Originally Posted By: therancher


Exactly right. And I don't believe it is as far fetched as most people think. Heck somehow CWD jumped from here to Norway... lol.

Had a group leasing my south texas place that wanted to release some bred does. I made sure they understood that if TPWD killed all the deer on the place that they would need to sign a 10 year deal to pay me full lease price even if there wasn't one deer on the place.

Eddie I know others know the high end sheep and goats much better than I do. But Blackbuck males bought as yearlings or fawns are cheap and grow fast and don't eat much. And there are no restrictions on dealing them. They aren't high dollar animals but they are consistent and cheap to raise out. Bucks only.
Very true Rancher. A lot depends on how deep he wants to get into it. BB are not expensive to be bought at a young age. But then again they do not bring a whole lot at reaching say a shootable size of around 18 inches. The difference in a 18 inch at an auction and a 18 inch to shoot is really not that much. So what would be better? Buy 18 inch and really baby them to say 23 inches or buy 6 inch yearlings and keep them until they got to 18 inches? What would bring the best return?

Which ever one would be subject to the least amount of death losses. Blackbuck in my experience do not handle stress very well at all. I would think the younger ones would grow out better if they are all close to the same age. The older ones are more likely to sustain horn breakage, which would severely drop their value. Selling 18" might return more on your investment over a long term as they grow rapidly to 18" then tend to slow down a bit after that, like most horned animals do. Growing out quicker would allow more turn of numbers in shorter time frame. IME, I have seen a higher % males over 20" with broken horns than those under 20".


Yep. I was told if one gets to 20+ you better get him shot. I have blackbuck sustaining herd mainly to feed yotes hoping they get the ever present young blackbuck before they get the more valuable whitetail fawns.

I wouldnít waste time $ to raise past 18Ē.

Didnít think about this earlier but scimitars are something to think about. Both male and female are trophies and they are one of the most robust exotics. Iíve never lost one. They readily eat hay so you can supplement rather cheaply. Only drawbacks would be size of place and if itís in East Texas youíre gonna have hood rot issues over time.

I know firsthand that Addax males are terrible about fighting and brooming off horns. I bought a pair of 32"-34" males to put into a pasture. About a year later they were 28" horn length after fighting with each other. I would think Scimitars would do the same since they did in a breeding herd pen with them we had. If I were going to raise an African antelope it might be Gemsbok since not many were raising them back years ago. Not as common as Scimitars back then. They are do much better in colder temps than Scimitar did on the ranch I managed in Kendall County. The only down side might be how wild they can get or aggressive they can get which can happen with any of the 3 I was around. All 3 eat hay well. The only one we had hoof rot issues with was an Addax bull.



Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: stxranchman] #7201507
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Yep scimitar break horns but for some reason mine have been mostly broken horn females. Iíd say 7 or 8% have some horn issue. About the same as my addax. Still better producers than blackbuck or axis even with broken horns. Addax are worth more but they donít raise as many babies to maturity as compared to my scimitar. Gemsbok do get aggressive. And my neighbors break just as many horns as addax and scimitar. They are the highest price as of now.

Iíve had temps here as low as 15 and some nasty ice fogs. I guess Iíve just been lucky. I think I lost some addax babies due to cold this last year. But that pasture is so thick Iíd never find the proof.


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EddieWalker  Offline OP
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Tyler, TX
Thank you. I've considered all of those animals, but worried about the cold. I was in Mount Pleasant on Sunday and saw some blackbuck real close to Interstate 30. I'm sure he was 20 inches or more!!! There is a nice sized herd of scimitar about half an hour to the East of me that seems really healthy, and I've seen pics of some Gemsbok doing well in the Athens area. The animal that I want the most are elk, but they seem to have to most CWD issues. Friend of mine had a really nice bull pass away in the Fall from eating too many acorns. Never knew that was a problem. Antlers, and all animals with antlers are what I'd mostly like to raise. Keeping them long enough to be something special is the basis of my plan. How many 5 year old fallow bucks are out there to hunt on a ranch? What does a 5 year old axis look like? I see tons of pictures of nice animals taken, but very few of older, mature, heavy ones.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7202177
06/19/18 06:00 PM
06/19/18 06:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
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Mountain Home, Uvalde, and Big...
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therancher Offline
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Fallow bucks might be what you want then. Buy them as yearlings and raise them out. Elk are a pain, eat a ton and are slow to mature.

I wouldnít raise fallow does. I would advise against fallow if you have neighbors with fallow. You would need to double your fence up to 4í or theyíll let themselves out. Other than that you should be good.

There is a decent chance that cwd regs will be applied to fallow in the future. Just an FYI.


Crotchety old bastidge
Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7208689
06/26/18 01:17 PM
06/26/18 01:17 PM
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Bandera, Tx
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don k Online content
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don k  Online Content
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From what I have seen lately and this may not be what the markets are a few years from now but here it is. Right now there seems to be better money in females of some of the more desirable species than there are in males unless they are true trophy caliber. At the YO auction in the Spring it seemed as if female African animals brought better money than the males unless the males were really big. From my personal experience lately Ibex females right now are again more sought after than males unless the males are really big. I put a yearling Nubian Ibex female on WB about a month ago to test the market. I got $4135 for her. That was unheard of for me. A couple of weeks ago I put another on there. Same size and everything. I got a little over $2500 for her. Kind of back to semi normal but still for me very good money for a year and a half year old goat. This last week I put a 4 year old pure Nubian Ibex on there with a reserve and it only got to $6100. A couple of years ago he would have probably brought over $8000. So if you can raise animals for only a year and a half and make money it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to raise them for 5 years or so.

Re: Question on raising just bucks [Re: EddieWalker] #7211889
06/29/18 08:59 PM
06/29/18 08:59 PM
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Tyler, TX
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EddieWalker Offline OP
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Thank you Don. Both my wife and I have good jobs, so raising animals on our land is going to be a hobby that we hope makes a buck, but realize that our main objective is just to enjoy where we live an having a variety of animals. The more I ask around, the more sources I find of people that raise exotics.

Here is my plan.

I'm clearing my fence line so that I'll have about 50 feet on either side of it. My neighbor loves this idea and is allowing me to take out his trees too. I'm probably 3/4's of the way done doing this. I've already cleared and graded 2 acres for a barn and holding pens. I'm also working on improving my pature by spraying 2,4-D and bush hogging along with round up in some areas, then disking and planting coastal. I have a 4 1/2 acre pond for lots of water.

First year I'll buy ten to 20 male fawns of different species. I plan on keeping them in the smaller holding pens next to the barn so they get used to being fed corn, and other types of feed, and seeing people. Just guessing, I expect this to last a couple of months. Then I will let them out of the holding pen and into the rest of my land. I own 68 acres with the expectation that they will come back to feed at the barn every day, at the same time. This has worked great for horses, goats and chickens. This is when I expect to learn the most.

Second year I'll do the same and buy ten to 20 fawns of different species. Keep them in the holding pens for a few months, then let them join the others.

Third, forth and fifth year are the same.

Fifth year is when I expect to start having some animals that might be worth selling. Then every year I will buy fawns and sell mature animals. I'm really hoping that they come to the barn to feed every day, as this is how I plan on catching them when it's time to sell them. I know there are other ways, but this seems to be the least stressful on them, and there will be no drugs in their systems.

So I have a long term investment that I'm wondering if it will break even? lose money? or make a small profit? To my knowledge, I haven't seen this done before, like I'm thinking of doing it.

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