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Mar 25th, 2012
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PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. #7196669
06/13/18 05:24 PM
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Posting this here because itís too important to get buried on he caracara thread, and I donít want anyone here to get in trouble they didnít think they could get into.

The fed doesnít play. In the 70ís the area where I now live down through the Frio and nueces river bottoms were angora goat and sheep country.

It was also (and still is to some extent) eagle country. Hundreds of both golden and bald eagles migrated to these river bottoms to nest in the winter. The easiest prey around at that time was kids and lambs. The ranchers were losing lots of stock to predation by eagles. So they used the most effective means available to wage a war on the animals that were destroying their livelihood. They used helicopters to thin the eagles down.

The fed learned about it and sent an undercover fishcop out to investigate and he spent over a year out here compiling evidence on people who were ďjust protecting their propertyĒ from predators.

I have friends and acquaintances who spent time in a fed prison because of that investigation and resulting prosecution.

As I said on the other thread, I donít agree with all the protections provided to raptors. Mainly because I lose thousands of dollars annually to their appetite for tasty valuable critters. But just because I donít agree with those laws and believe I ought to be able to kill these predators, doesnít mean I donít know that is a losing path. The laws SHOULD protect both the animals AND livestock raisers. The fed doesnít see it that way.

ďIncident at Eagle RanchĒ is a good read if you ever want to know how far our lovely fed will go to keep ranchers from protecting their property.


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Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196673
06/13/18 05:32 PM
06/13/18 05:32 PM
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Is that the story where the FEDs showed up at one place and took all the pickups and trailers? It was written up in one of the livestock mags. Serious bidness.


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Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7196677
06/13/18 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Is that the story where the FEDs showed up at one place and took all the pickups and trailers? It was written up in one of the livestock mags. Serious bidness.


I donít think so. This was back in the 70ís. The laws were fresh and the mindsets hadnít adjusted.


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Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196680
06/13/18 05:40 PM
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My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: skinnerback] #7196699
06/13/18 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: skinnerback
My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn


And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.


Crotchety old bastidge
Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196701
06/13/18 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn


And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.



I understand it's risky business. If someone really has an issue with raptor predation, best thing to do is apply for a permit to kill them. We were talking caracaras though. The law only mentions Bald & Golden Eagles by permit. I don't think most people care about shooting caracaras if they were causing problems. Unless you're with the Fed, of course. I've only had dealings with one Federal Warden, and he was a mofo.

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: skinnerback] #7196726
06/13/18 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn


And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.



I understand it's risky business. If someone really has an issue with raptor predation, best thing to do is apply for a permit to kill them. We were talking caracaras though. The law only mentions Bald & Golden Eagles by permit. I don't think most people care about shooting caracaras if they were causing problems.


Skinner,

that is incorrect.

Crested Caracaras, the correct name, are on the list of species protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. That is not debatable.

https://www.fws.gov/birds/management/managed-species/migratory-bird-treaty-act-protected-species.php

There is no exception for seeing them taking livestock making it legal to kill them.

I'm open to seeing such an exception in federal law if you can post a link, but I am not aware of one.

Federal law pre-empts state law on this issue, again, that is not debatable.

There may be circumstances in which the USFWS will grant a permit to allow "take" of a species, even endangered species, but that approval has to be sought in advance, not after the fact.

Old saying in the law, "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." Having to hire a lawyer to fight federal felony charges is going to start - start - in the $25,000 - $50,000 range for legal fees, and could easily run into the $100's of $1000's if someone really had the means and will to fight. Losing could result in felony convictions, which means prison time, major fines, loss of the right to own a firearm for life, loss of the right to vote, loss of occupational licenses, among other consequences.

As therancher is trying to make clear, this area is not something to dismiss and take lightly.

Heed his advice.

Good post rancher. up





Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: skinnerback] #7196736
06/13/18 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn


And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.



I understand it's risky business. If someone really has an issue with raptor predation, best thing to do is apply for a permit to kill them. We were talking caracaras though. The law only mentions Bald & Golden Eagles by permit. I don't think most people care about shooting caracaras if they were causing problems. Unless you're with the Fed, of course. I've only had dealings with one Federal Warden, and he was a mofo.


The "permit exception" might only mention bald and golden eagles. But the law protecting them mentions every bird except house sparrows, starlings and maybe a couple of others. And I promise you the state wardens (who are charged with enforcing fed laws) will cite you for killing virtually any bird other than game birds in season. Again, they are taught to "be your friend".... they are NOT your friend. But learn what you need to learn at your own pace.


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Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196737
06/13/18 06:57 PM
06/13/18 06:57 PM
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Get a falcon, they hate hawks, eagles, and owls. Become a falconer fight fire with fire.

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: jeffbird] #7196738
06/13/18 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn


And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.



I understand it's risky business. If someone really has an issue with raptor predation, best thing to do is apply for a permit to kill them. We were talking caracaras though. The law only mentions Bald & Golden Eagles by permit. I don't think most people care about shooting caracaras if they were causing problems.


Skinner,

that is incorrect.

Crested Caracaras, the correct name, are on the list of species protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. That is not debatable.

https://www.fws.gov/birds/management/managed-species/migratory-bird-treaty-act-protected-species.php

There is no exception for seeing them taking livestock making it legal to kill them.

I'm open to seeing such an exception in federal law if you can post a link, but I am not aware of one.

Federal law pre-empts state law on this issue, again, that is not debatable.

There may be circumstances in which the USFWS will grant a permit to allow "take" of a species, even endangered species, but that approval has to be sought in advance, not after the fact.

Old saying in the law, "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." Having to hire a lawyer to fight federal felony charges is going to start - start - in the $25,000 - $50,000 range for legal fees, and could easily run into the $100's of $1000's if someone really had the means and will to fight. Losing could result in felony convictions, which means prison time, major fines, loss of the right to own a firearm for life, loss of the right to vote, loss of occupational licenses, among other consequences.

As therancher is trying to make clear, this area is not something to dismiss and take lightly.

Heed his advice.

Good post rancher. up






Close friend chose to fight a lacy act violation and it cost him $250,000. He was let off easy but you are right about the ride not being any fun.

Don't even get me started about the outdated worthless lacy act...


Crotchety old bastidge
Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: 8pointdrop] #7196742
06/13/18 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: 8pointdrop
Get a falcon, they hate hawks, eagles, and owls. Become a falconer fight fire with fire.


Even better, hire a falconer. Falcons are like swimming pools and horses.


Crotchety old bastidge
Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196748
06/13/18 07:06 PM
06/13/18 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: 8pointdrop
Get a falcon, they hate hawks, eagles, and owls. Become a falconer fight fire with fire.


Even better, hire a falconer. Falcons are like swimming pools and horses.

Yeah currently have a red tail and Iím still an apprentice. Havenít taken the falcon jump yet. If I could trap a sub adult falcon Iíd have one already, because I canít afford to buy one. Not a big enough population of them to attempt to trap one locally, like red tails.

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: jeffbird] #7196757
06/13/18 07:13 PM
06/13/18 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn


And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.



I understand it's risky business. If someone really has an issue with raptor predation, best thing to do is apply for a permit to kill them. We were talking caracaras though. The law only mentions Bald & Golden Eagles by permit. I don't think most people care about shooting caracaras if they were causing problems.


Skinner,

that is incorrect.

Crested Caracaras, the correct name, are on the list of species protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. That is not debatable.



Yes Sir, I understand they are on the list. I was referring to this link permit . Pertaining to the permit to take (kill) depredating eagles. I don't know if you can get a permit to kill depredating Caracaras or not? I've never shot a Caracara and don't plan to, just got myself involved in an interesting conversation. cheers I must admit that I am a firm believer in protecting one's property and lively hood, and I also understand that Federal Law trumps State Law MOST of the time (not always)...but I'm a bit of a rebel I guess. I even rip the tags off of my mattresses and risk fines and imprisonment. grin

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196759
06/13/18 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: 8pointdrop
Get a falcon, they hate hawks, eagles, and owls. Become a falconer fight fire with fire.


Even better, hire a falconer. Falcons are like swimming pools and horses.


I'm curious to know if this wouldn't be considered hunting since the falcon would be
under the control of the handler? And if so, also a violation?

I don't know, just wondering.


It's nights like these that make me sleep all day

Lucero
Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196762
06/13/18 07:21 PM
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No falconer would ever fly his bird on another BOP. I was joking. We avoid any known BOP territory especially in nesting season. Watched my master falconer lose a Harris hawk to a prairie falcon. Wasnít cool lots of work and money gone.

Last edited by 8pointdrop; 06/13/18 07:25 PM.
Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: 8pointdrop] #7196764
06/13/18 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: 8pointdrop
No falconer would ever fly his bird on another BOP. I was joking.


Just curious. Thanks.


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Lucero
Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: 8pointdrop] #7196779
06/13/18 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: 8pointdrop
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: 8pointdrop
Get a falcon, they hate hawks, eagles, and owls. Become a falconer fight fire with fire.


Even better, hire a falconer. Falcons are like swimming pools and horses.

Yeah currently have a red tail and Iím still an apprentice. Havenít taken the falcon jump yet. If I could trap a sub adult falcon Iíd have one already, because I canít afford to buy one. Not a big enough population of them to attempt to trap one locally, like red tails.


Had some buddies with hawks many moons ago when I was at A&M. Learned from them I wouldnít have the time or commitment it takes to own them. Love watching them work. In England since they outlawed guns many have turned to hawks for hunting.

I love watching the videos of the Kazakhstanis hunting deer, goats and wolves with theirs. Incredible.


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Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: skinnerback] #7196780
06/13/18 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: skinnerback



I also understand that Federal Law trumps State Law MOST of the time (not always)...but I'm a bit of a rebel I guess. I even rip the tags off of my mattresses and risk fines and imprisonment. grin


When would federal law ever not overrule state law?

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: SherpaPhil] #7196816
06/13/18 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: SherpaPhil
Originally Posted By: skinnerback



I also understand that Federal Law trumps State Law MOST of the time (not always)...but I'm a bit of a rebel I guess. I even rip the tags off of my mattresses and risk fines and imprisonment. grin


When would federal law ever not overrule state law?


In dealing with pot and illegals!!!!!!!!







Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: SherpaPhil] #7196817
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Originally Posted By: SherpaPhil
Originally Posted By: skinnerback



I also understand that Federal Law trumps State Law MOST of the time (not always)...but I'm a bit of a rebel I guess. I even rip the tags off of my mattresses and risk fines and imprisonment. grin


When would federal law ever not overrule state law?



Start with marijuana.

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196857
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Federal regulations would not trump state law when it comes to things that take place entirely within the state. Theoretically. Pot sales that don't cross state lines aren't any of the Fed's business unless they really want to fight it out in the Supreme Court. I don't anyone in Washington wants to deal with the repercussions if they lose that fight.

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: therancher] #7196871
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TPWD has a depredation permit process. I know first hand that the State can, will, and has issued permits for caracaras eradication for killing new born calves on a very large well known S. TX ranch (commercial cattle operation).

https://tpwd.texas.gov/business/permits/land/wildlife_management/depredation/index.phtml



Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: First_Chance] #7196882
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Originally Posted By: First_Chance
TPWD has a depredation permit process. I know first hand that the State can, will, and has issued permits for caracaras eradication for killing new born calves on a very large well known S. TX ranch (commercial cattle operation).

https://tpwd.texas.gov/business/permits/land/wildlife_management/depredation/index.phtml



up

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: skinnerback] #7197052
06/14/18 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn


And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.



I understand it's risky business. If someone really has an issue with raptor predation, best thing to do is apply for a permit to kill them. We were talking caracaras though. The law only mentions Bald & Golden Eagles by permit. I don't think most people care about shooting caracaras if they were causing problems. Unless you're with the Fed, of course. I've only had dealings with one Federal Warden, and he was a mofo.


Letís be honest, God created SCBís string rays in your country because of Feds.

Re: PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock. [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7197056
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: skinnerback
My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock. popcorn


And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.



I understand it's risky business. If someone really has an issue with raptor predation, best thing to do is apply for a permit to kill them. We were talking caracaras though. The law only mentions Bald & Golden Eagles by permit. I don't think most people care about shooting caracaras if they were causing problems. Unless you're with the Fed, of course. I've only had dealings with one Federal Warden, and he was a mofo.


Let’s be honest, God created SCB’s string rays in your country because of Feds.



Sorry Bobo you lost me, LOL.

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