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Mar 25th, 2012
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Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Sniper John] #7171652
05/16/18 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sniper John
-----Original Message-----
> From: TPWD@prodweb2.tpwd.state.tx.us
> [mailto:TPWD@prodweb2.tpwd.state.tx.us]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 8:41 PM
> To:
> Subject: Web Site - E-MAIL REPLY REQUESTED - Hunting on Public Lands in Texas
>
>
> *** E-mail reply requested!
>
> Comment or Question:
>
> Is it legal for professional hunting guides to charge money to
> take people hunting on public land like the LBJ grasslands here
> in Texas? also what kind of insurance do these guides need to
> have in case of an accident? Also is there some kind of permit
> these guides need to have in order to do business in Texas?


> From: hunt <hunt@tpwd.state.tx.us>
> Date: February 24, 2011 7:40:17 AM CST
> To:
> Subject: RE: Web Site - E-MAIL REPLY REQUESTED - Hunting
>
> They are unable to do so since they would not be able to that
>since a Hunting Lease license is required of a landowner or
>landowner's agent who leases hunting rights to another person
>on property they own or control for pay or other consideration.
>The license must be displayed on the property.
> The guide is not the landowner or landowner's agent
>since they do not own the property nor lease it since it is
>open to all the public to utilize. They also would not be able
>to acquire a Hunting Lease license due to the open statement.
>
>
>


A) That area is federal land.
B) As if that area isnít crowded enough...lake namer (even if itís another forum memberís email, you posted it. grin)


Originally Posted By: bill oxner
I just turned it on . I was looking bird dogs in the butt this morning.


Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Duck_Hunter] #7171698
05/16/18 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: Duck_Hunter


A) That area is federal land.
B) As if that area isnít crowded enough...lake namer (even if itís another forum memberís email, you posted it. grin)


The answer was written addressing all public land "public land like...". As said earlier I also asked TPWD as well in reference to all public land and got a near identical answer, but it was a very long time ago. Feel free to email them yourself with the question. I am fairly sure you will get the same answer. While your at it, ask them about how it does or does not apply to public water and post the answer for us please. And yes it is no secret, Everyone knows I hunt Lake Ray Roberts. More mallards than any lake in the States. Any guides not operating there are really missing out.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7171719
05/16/18 11:39 PM
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My only public land guide encounter story.

I was in the parking area off a public land access point on Ray Bob. I had two friends that met me there. We were packed up with decoys and gear about to hit the trail when a truck slides into the parking area. A guy gets out, intercepts us and says "y'all better not be headed to my spot, I have two clients coming". I had never met or seen this guy before. I told him "I would have no idea if I was headed to your spot or not". Turned out he had had a run in with some other hunters the day before over a hunting spot with the game warden called by one of the parties to diffuse the situation. I chose to handle the situation different than the previous hunters. I knew the area well and we were the only two groups so I told him something like "only you know where you are hunting, your the guide, you tell me where to hunt". I agreed with his recommendation. All went well, both parties limiting out. We walked up to visit with him and his clients after the hunt. I used the opportunity to pick his brain. I figured out he was hunting on a submerged road bed/well pad that ducks lounge over late morning. Easy to find because of the remains of a platform he had built when the water was higher. I still have that spot in my portfolio of hunting spots and have hunted it more than a few times. As well as an area on another lake he inadvertently gave up to us that season.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Sniper John] #7171781
05/17/18 12:37 AM
05/17/18 12:37 AM
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This thread is starting to really take shape. Someone pass the salt. popcorn

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7171910
05/17/18 02:36 AM
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As an individual, I can handle finding that my first choice spot, and maybe my second and third, are taken. I don't like that, but I can live with it. A guide literally can't afford to have that happen. He can't afford to have someone get to the spot first, in which case his clients will chew his head off. It makes for too much pressure. It leads the guides in high pressure places to get nasty to reserve their spot.
The experts on this forum always tell us the same thing: Ya gotta be on the "X." Most of the lake is worthless. There are only a few spots that are really good. But what if I get to the X and find a guide has put up a fancy blind on it? Yes, they do it. They will say it is to make their clients comfortable. Really, it is because they are like lawless and arrogant squatters, taking over PUBLIC land and claiming it as their own. Sometimes guides on the places I hunt throw out decoys the night before to claim their spot. Sometimes they send out some lowly employee to sit in "their" blind at 2 a.m. This last is maybe the least egregious, but it makes it harder and harder for the average guy to find a place to hunt.
Cody Malone, you must hunt remote places. If you hunt places where there really isn't any pressure, and you are respectful of those who get there before you, I guess I don't see anything wrong with that, but that is not the norm.
Sniper John, you handled your situation admirably. I never get in arguments while out hunting, and I would like to say I would have handled that similarly. But a person in the situation you describe could have rightfully said something like this: Look, it is public land, and I am here at the launch first. First come, first serve. If you have a fast boat and get to your spot first, I won't hunt within 200 yards of you. But if I get to my spot first, you will have no right to tell me to leave. The fact that you make your living hunting doesn't give you any more right to a spot. First come, first serve.
Somebody is going to reply to this by saying that they know every guide in Texas and every one of them is a former choir boy who helps old ladies across the street. I am here to tell you they are not all like that. The pressure on public land it getting crazy. The guides who hunt public are not nice or even respectful of other hunters. They can't afford to be.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7172028
05/17/18 12:19 PM
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Sniper I sure ain't calling you a liar. It's clear you asked the question to the state. But it's hard for me to believe it. It would be like someone telling me that wearing leather work boots is a felony. I would have a real hard time believing them.

Whomever answered the question may or may not have even known.

As to whether it should be legal or not.. I'm torn I've never had a run in with one I do not believe. The reality is lakes are crowded they would be crowded with or without them. Anyone can be a jerk guide or not.

Last edited by ducknbass; 05/17/18 12:19 PM.
Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7172235
05/17/18 04:04 PM
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You know its getting bad when public walk -in-hunters get mad at public-boat-in hunters cause as I was told one morning last season..."you have the whole lake to hunt with that boat, why are you hunting this spot?"

I simply replied I hunt where I have seen ducks no matter where its at on a lake. They went about their way and gave us good distance between us.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: ndhunter] #7172253
05/17/18 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: ndhunter
Do waterfowl guides pay taxes on the income they generate from their services? Most, all...none?

I don't think hunting guide fees are subject to sales or use tax



Any income generated from a business is taxed. Whether the part time guide report it the income and pay taxes on it is another matter.


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Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: ducknbass] #7172272
05/17/18 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: ducknbass
Sniper I sure ain't calling you a liar. It's clear you asked the question to the state. But it's hard for me to believe it. It would be like someone telling me that wearing leather work boots is a felony. I would have a real hard time believing them.

Whomever answered the question may or may not have even known.

As to whether it should be legal or not.. I'm torn I've never had a run in with one I do not believe. The reality is lakes are crowded they would be crowded with or without them. Anyone can be a jerk guide or not.



Let's ask. This sound good?

Is it legal for professional hunting guides to charge money to
take people hunting on public land in Texas. If not allowed, what regulation or regulations apply? Any exception between guiding on public State vs federal land? Any exception for public waterbodys? For example professional waterfowl guides operating on public lakes in Texas. And last any exception for public hunting guides operating on waterbodys located within public properties?

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7172315
05/17/18 05:35 PM
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Done. I directed the question to TPWD law enforcement requesting a reply. We will see if they are still giving the same answer and this time how they do or don't apply it to public water. I will post the reply when I get one.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Sniper John] #7172323
05/17/18 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sniper John
Originally Posted By: Duck_Hunter


A) That area is federal land.
B) As if that area isnít crowded enough...lake namer (even if itís another forum memberís email, you posted it. grin)


The answer was written addressing all public land "public land like...". As said earlier I also asked TPWD as well in reference to all public land and got a near identical answer, but it was a very long time ago. Feel free to email them yourself with the question. I am fairly sure you will get the same answer. While your at it, ask them about how it does or does not apply to public water and post the answer for us please. And yes it is no secret, Everyone knows I hunt Lake Ray Roberts. More mallards than any lake in the States. Any guides not operating there are really missing out.


John, I was making a joke. I was definitely not saying that answer was wrong or disputing it. Iím sorry for not being more clear I was kidding.


Originally Posted By: bill oxner
I just turned it on . I was looking bird dogs in the butt this morning.


Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7172327
05/17/18 05:53 PM
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John

If you were to ask the state of leather work boots were illegal to wear and whomever replied said yes. I wouldn't believe it. Not a whole lot anyone could do to make me believe it was illegal. Short of mass enforcement.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7172380
05/17/18 06:55 PM
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It's ok. I understood that. When it had been brought up by someone the first time it was related to a forum member guiding turkeys on public "land". Just for trivia it will be interesting to see how they spin it related to "water" if they give the same answer as before. Nice to see a charged thread in here. Been boring since season closed.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Sniper John] #7172435
05/17/18 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sniper John
It's ok. I understood that. When it had been brought up by someone the first time it was related to a forum member guiding turkeys on public "land". Just for trivia it will be interesting to see how they spin it related to "water" if they give the same answer as before. Nice to see a charged thread in here. Been boring since season closed.


That it has. A little off season fun.

As to the topic, Iíve never thought about it until this thread. Iíve also never hunted or fished with a guide, except on a charter fishing boat in salt water.

Part of me doesnít care, because presumably, the guides are paying taxes on their income, and also because Iím a walk in hunter and usually only hunt a few places. Public hunting is first-come, first-serve, and thatís part of the game.

On the other hand, guides drive up the prices of leases, lakes are already crowded, etc, etc.

Interesting topic and I can see both sides.


Originally Posted By: bill oxner
I just turned it on . I was looking bird dogs in the butt this morning.


Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Cody Malone] #7172868
05/18/18 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: Cody Malone
I guided exclusively on a public lake for 5/6 years with great success. Never had a single issue with a client who would show blatant disrespect and hunt where I took them as they knew that's how I made part of my living ever year.

Interesting. I donít understand this. This would be my only reason to higher a guide on public land, is to understand the land vs scouting. I mean if I just want to shoot ducks, go private.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Guy] #7172964
05/18/18 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: Guy

Interesting. I donít understand this. This would be my only reason to higher a guide on public land, is to understand the land vs scouting. I mean if I just want to shoot ducks, go private.


Same


Originally Posted By: garrett
I'm with GK because I like salty old dudes.
Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Guy] #7172978
05/18/18 12:17 PM
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I wouldnít hunt with guide on public if was free, if the expectation is that where we hunted was then off limits for me. Forget that.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Flock Knocker] #7174795
05/20/18 03:02 PM
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Abilene or on the road...
Originally Posted By: Flock Knocker
Originally Posted By: ndhunter
Do waterfowl guides pay taxes on the income they generate from their services? Most, all...none?

I don't think hunting guide fees are subject to sales or use tax



Any income generated from a business is taxed. Whether the part time guide report it the income and pay taxes on it is another matter.


Generally hunting guide fees are not subject to sales taxes.


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Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7176156
05/22/18 12:04 AM
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This was an answer given several years ago

"The all inclusive fee per hunter per day, is not taxable as an amusement.
However, the amount of the fee that is allocated to guest lodging is
taxable under the Hotel tax statute; the amount of the fee that is
allocated to meals is taxable; hunting and fishing guide fees are not
taxable; sales tax is not due on hunting fees"

No answer/reply on our public guide question yet. May have thrown them for a loop on the canned answer when I included public water in the question.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7178798
05/24/18 06:04 PM
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This is a thought provoking thread. The only rub for me is guides moving into public areas that I have hunted for over 40 years. Then trying to claim it as there own, and attempt to run everybody else out of the area. Then try to play the "this is how I make my living" card like it gives them the right to push hunters around who have hunted the area for decades. Then try to hunt the area every day they can book, till they pressure the birds out of the area. I've never lost any sleep over it, but If I had to step down on one side of the fence, I would lean toward no guides on public water. The bottom line is those that can, do. Those that can't, hire a guide.


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Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Smokey Bear] #7178804
05/24/18 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
This is a thought provoking thread. The only rub for me is guides moving into public areas that I have hunted for over 40 years. Then trying to claim it as there own, and attempt to run everybody else out of the area. Then try to play the "this is how I make my living" card like it gives them the right to push hunters around who have hunted the area for decades. Then try to hunt the area every day they can book, till they pressure the birds out of the area. I've never lost any sleep over it, but If I had to step down on one side of the fence, I would lean toward no guides on public water. The bottom line is those that can, do. Those that can't, hire a guide.


I 100% agree there should be no guiding on public land.


Originally Posted By: garrett
I'm with GK because I like salty old dudes.
Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Smokey Bear] #7178895
05/24/18 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
The bottom line is those that can, do. Those that can't, hire a guide.


Factual fact and sig worthy

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7179415
05/25/18 08:12 AM
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Well ducknbass, I still have not got a reply from TPWD. Enough days have passed that I doubt I will get an answer. I don't have a dog in the fight, so I'm not going to press the issue with them. Either public waterfowl guides are breaking the law unenforced or it is is legal to also guide on public land in Texas. I don't see how it can be both for the answer they gave previously. Not to mention some or most guided public waterfowl hunts actually take place from on the adjacent public land or shoreline anyway. I have never heard of anyone getting a ticket for guiding on public land or water and that answer I posted from another forum member was like from 7 years ago. When I had asked and got the same answer it was farther back than that, but I no longer have the email to reference. The way the current hunting lease license code reads it seems to put the responsibility on the landowner rather than hunter so maybe something changed with that regulation since back then. For now the official answers remain a mystery.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Sniper John] #7179467
05/25/18 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: Sniper John
Well ducknbass, I still have not got a reply from TPWD. Enough days have passed that I doubt I will get an answer. I don't have a dog in the fight, so I'm not going to press the issue with them. Either public waterfowl guides are breaking the law unenforced or it is is legal to also guide on public land in Texas. I don't see how it can be both for the answer they gave previously. Not to mention some or most guided public waterfowl hunts actually take place from on the adjacent public land or shoreline anyway. I have never heard of anyone getting a ticket for guiding on public land or water and that answer I posted from another forum member was like from 7 years ago. When I had asked and got the same answer it was farther back than that, but I no longer have the email to reference. The way the current hunting lease license code reads it seems to put the responsibility on the landowner rather than hunter so maybe something changed with that regulation since back then. For now the official answers remain a mystery.


Government at work.

Re: Guiding on Public land [Re: Hko] #7179767
05/25/18 03:56 PM
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I am 100% in favor of guides on public. No one person's desires is any more important than the next. It is only when the other infringes on the next guy that a problem is created. I have rarely had trouble with a guide on public. In fact only once, but it was not a guide. It was the kid he hired to sit in the blind to reserve the spot that I had a, run in, not worthy of calling it a problem. He told me to get out. I said no. He made a round about threat of "If you don't you will be sorry". He was all of a buck fifty and scared poopless. He just didn't want to get in trouble with his guide boss for going fishing while he was supposed to sit his narrow little butt in the blind. I have a problem with trashing the bays and wasting of our resources. As I shouldn't be allowed to infringe on a man's right to making a living, he shouldn't be allowed to infringe on my rights either. Far too long it has been rather one sided.


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