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Mar 25th, 2012
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4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress #7160759
05/05/18 02:18 AM
05/05/18 02:18 AM
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I need an AR guru it's been to two smiths and Ive scratched my head and tried everything my brain can think of.

I have a Palmetto Ar-10 that is short stroking and it's driving me nuts. I swapped barrels from the mid length factory 308 to a wilson combat 6.5 Creedmoor rifle gas length. I have a tack driving single shot semiauto. At first I ran the buffer and spring that comes with a factory PSA pa-10 lower I was worried about over gassing. Wouldn't run. Then I tried both armalite and dpms rifle length tubes, no dice. Sent off to smith # 1 he said port was too small opened it up to .095" with no adjustable gas block (wide open) problem persists. Runs semi 1out of 15 times for 2-3 rounds at this point. Swapped to a lighter buffer and spring and still no dice. Sent to smith #2 said he thought it should be over gassed he's stumped. So I'm at my witts end, and need some help. don't want to send it back to wilson as it likes the same load as bolt gun and shoots easily sub moa.

Thanks.


Jorge Sakai
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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160770
05/05/18 02:26 AM
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I built up a 16" 6.5 Creed using a Wilson barrel and my buddy built an 18" 6.5 creed using a Wilson barrel as well. Both guns have SLR gas blocks and both will not lock to the back with the gas block all the way open. They run fine suppressed. I'm guessing the port isn't big enough? We didn't drill them out. But I don't plan on shooting unsupressed....sorry...not much help. One thing in common is the Wilson barrels.


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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: Tye] #7160788
05/05/18 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tye
I built up a 16" 6.5 Creed using a Wilson barrel and my buddy built an 18" 6.5 creed using a Wilson barrel as well. Both guns have SLR gas blocks and both will not lock to the back with the gas block all the way open. They run fine suppressed. I'm guessing the port isn't big enough? We didn't drill them out. But I don't plan on shooting unsupressed....sorry...not much help. One thing in common is the Wilson barrels.


Tye, our rifles function, cycle and eject reliably..they just donít lock back on an empty mag when running unsuppressed. I reached out to Wilson about the issue. I went back and forth with one of their techs and after realizing Iím running the exact gas block they recommend, they eventually said they thought it was the JP internals that was the problem. Wilson offered to look the rifle over and troubleshoot it if I wanted to mail it in. I declined since it works fine suppressd.

Jorge, if you havenít already, you might try a different/adjustable gas block. The gas block you are running could be an issue. Even if you drilled out the barrel the gas block could be too constrictive. Something else to check is to make absolutely sure that the gas holes line up. If they arenít lining up properly you can be undergassed. Basic stuff but worth mentioning.

Iím considering one of those expensive JP buffers that have the adjustable weights in an effort to ďtuneĒ the rifle. I havenít played with mine much but my issues donít sound as bad as yours.





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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160791
05/05/18 02:50 AM
05/05/18 02:50 AM
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I would've tried an adjustable gas block before I bought any other gas tubes or let someone drill on my barrel. If you're trying to adjust the gas flow, why not? That's why there's a market for adjustable gas blocks.


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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160797
05/05/18 03:00 AM
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Sorry for not including I tried an adjustable gas block as well and no dice at any setting


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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160801
05/05/18 03:04 AM
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Even its twin in 308 can get finicky depending on load but it's not close to the point this 6.5cm is. That and I'm Not tackling it till this 6.5 gets running right.


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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160806
05/05/18 03:11 AM
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Your spring & buffer are too heavy still, or the ammo you're using just isn't driving that gas system with enough oomph. What else is there??

With a rifle length gas tube you're tapping off gas as the pressure is in steep decline, compared to mid-length or carbine-length gas systems.. I'd look into getting a lighter still buffer and spring first, and then I'd be looking at ammo. I'm thinking heavy bullets, which usually go with slower burning powder---and more of it, meaning more gas produced. Pressures can hold a little higher and longer down the bore when slower burning propellants are used.

Every bit of that is pure educated guess, though. Maybe someone at AR15.com has a better answer. That's where I'd take it.




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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160812
05/05/18 03:17 AM
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Ok, a couple of questions for you. I realize that you had a couple of smiths look at it, but I am still going to ask the basic questions.

1. Are you sure that the gas block (or gas port for that matter) is in the right location? It might make sense to measure where the gas port is and ensure that the port on the barrel and the port on the block are aligned.

2. Are you sure that you are short stroking and not so over-gassed that the bolt is slamming back and then forward so fast it doesn't pick up another round? Where is your brass ejecting at (clock position)? If you single load with a mag in, does the bolt lock back?

3. Have you tried different magazines? It could very well be a mag problem, not a gas problem.

Those are some things to look at.


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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160829
05/05/18 03:43 AM
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Mine does this when itís not lubed enough. I would imagine youíve tried that, but itís all I know of.


Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: RiverRider] #7160833
05/05/18 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Your spring & buffer are too heavy still, or the ammo you're using just isn't driving that gas system with enough oomph. What else is there??

With a rifle length gas tube you're tapping off gas as the pressure is in steep decline, compared to mid-length or carbine-length gas systems.. I'd look into getting a lighter still buffer and spring first, and then I'd be looking at ammo. I'm thinking heavy bullets, which usually go with slower burning powder---and more of it, meaning more gas produced. Pressures can hold a little higher and longer down the bore when slower burning propellants are used.

Every bit of that is pure educated guess, though. Maybe someone at AR15.com has a better answer. That's where I'd take it.


It's puzzling and yesterday I shot it and it was discussed that there isn't enough pressure since it's a rifle length and 18" barrel. Thing is I'm using 40gr of H4350 which isnt anemic.


Jorge Sakai
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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: HandgunHTR] #7160837
05/05/18 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: HandgunHTR
Ok, a couple of questions for you. I realize that you had a couple of smiths look at it, but I am still going to ask the basic questions.

1. Are you sure that the gas block (or gas port for that matter) is in the right location? It might make sense to measure where the gas port is and ensure that the port on the barrel and the port on the block are aligned.

2. Are you sure that you are short stroking and not so over-gassed that the bolt is slamming back and then forward so fast it doesn't pick up another round? Where is your brass ejecting at (clock position)? If you single load with a mag in, does the bolt lock back?

3. Have you tried different magazines? It could very well be a mag problem, not a gas problem.

Those are some things to look at.


1. Myself and 4 other people have spent way too much time making sure it's aligned. I am fairly certain gas holes are right over each other BUT pulled the gas block off today and i had carbon build up significantly only on one side of the gas port Not concentric. So maybe not a true circle and have a bit of gas escaping. And I did mic distance and I'm +/- .025 misaligned.

2. According to shooting buddies it's short stroking but I've wondered if it's to fast. 3 o clock but yesterday it was throwing maybe 2 feet away.

3. Yep several types of mags

Last edited by jorge; 05/05/18 03:57 AM.
Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160841
05/05/18 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: jorge
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Your spring & buffer are too heavy still, or the ammo you're using just isn't driving that gas system with enough oomph. What else is there??

With a rifle length gas tube you're tapping off gas as the pressure is in steep decline, compared to mid-length or carbine-length gas systems.. I'd look into getting a lighter still buffer and spring first, and then I'd be looking at ammo. I'm thinking heavy bullets, which usually go with slower burning powder---and more of it, meaning more gas produced. Pressures can hold a little higher and longer down the bore when slower burning propellants are used.

Every bit of that is pure educated guess, though. Maybe someone at AR15.com has a better answer. That's where I'd take it.


It's puzzling and yesterday I shot it and it was discussed that there isn't enough pressure since it's a rifle length and 18" barrel. Thing is I'm using 40gr of H4350 which isnt anemic.


I think that powder charge is definitely light. I'm using up to 3 grains more powder with 140s in my bolt rifles and up to 5 grains more with 129s, with no pressure signs.

Last edited by ImTheReasonDovesMourn; 05/05/18 04:12 AM.

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by KRoyal
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160867
05/05/18 05:34 AM
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even factory 140 hornady blk and 129 superformance won't cycle. I'll load up a ladder and see how it goes and if I can find a faster node

Last edited by jorge; 05/05/18 05:35 AM.

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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160871
05/05/18 09:36 AM
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Did it give you the same issues with factory ammo?

I'm with Dove- 40.0gr H4350 is a pretty light load.

Last edited by HicksHunter; 05/05/18 09:37 AM.
Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: HicksHunter] #7160886
05/05/18 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: HicksHunter
Did it give you the same issues with factory ammo?

I'm with Dove- 40.0gr H4350 is a pretty light load.


Hodgdon's published max is what it is. It is too light though.



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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160930
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My iPhone has a slo mode record mode and I have used that to film the bolt and see whatís going on

Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160970
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Check the buttstock bolt. If itís too long it can limit bolt travel.


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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7160989
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What buffer and spring?

Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: FiremanJG] #7161083
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: HicksHunter
Did it give you the same issues with factory ammo?

I'm with Dove- 40.0gr H4350 is a pretty light load.


Hodgdon's published max is what it is. It is too light though.


When slow burning powders are loaded with excessively light charges, sufficient pressure never builds to the point of promoting the burn to achieve 100% conversion to gas. So, not only are you starting with less powder (which is intended to convert to the gas you need to cycle your action...therefore, less potential gas volume), but you are also inhibiting the conversion of that light charge to gas. Ultimately, it means that being 10% light on the charge does not equate to ending up 10% light on the volume of gas generated. When running pressures that are too low to achieve complete burn there is no linearity there.




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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: okie44] #7161086
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Originally Posted By: okie44
Check the buttstock bolt. If itís too long it can limit bolt travel.




That's a good question right there.

So, when the rifle was a .308, did everything work correctly? If you had a perfectly functional rifle, and all you did was rebarrel the upper, then that's one thing...but we don't know the history of the rifle. At least, not in this thread.




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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: RiverRider] #7161091
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: HicksHunter
Did it give you the same issues with factory ammo?

I'm with Dove- 40.0gr H4350 is a pretty light load.


Hodgdon's published max is what it is. It is too light though.


When slow burning powders are loaded with excessively light charges, sufficient pressure never builds to the point of promoting the burn to achieve 100% conversion to gas. So, not only are you starting with less powder (which is intended to convert to the gas you need to cycle your action...therefore, less potential gas volume), but you are also inhibiting the conversion of that light charge to gas. Ultimately, it means that being 10% light on the charge does not equate to ending up 10% light on the volume of gas generated. When running pressures that are too low to achieve complete burn there is no linearity there.


You telling me, or him?

Telling me that, is preaching to the choir. grin

Hodgdon lists 40.0 gr as max charge for a 140 gr bullet in the 6.5 Creedmoor. Everybody runs between 42.0 and 43.0. So they are too conservative.

Chad and I dug into what would be the best powder for an AR chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor, back in February. H-Varget was the answer to get the best percentage of burn, so that's what my customer and I loaded with.



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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7161108
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That was primarily for Jorge, but I suppose anyone who cares to read it may do so. grin

So, how did you and Chad make this determination?? What data and materials did you examine?




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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: RiverRider] #7161137
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One of your favorite tools, Quick Load. He plugged in multiple powders he and I thought would be appropriate, IMR-8208, IMR-4451, H-Varget. Quick Load gave H-Varget the highest percentage of burn, as well as best velocities.



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Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7161145
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Code:
Cartridge          : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet             : .264, 140, Hornady ELD-M 26331 G7
Useable Case Capaci: 47.039 grain H2O = 3.054 cm≥
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 115 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26                 106.9     49.8     3.23    2866   100.0    63000   13917   1.049  
Norma MRP                          107.6     48.7     3.16    2833    99.1    63000   13905   1.050  
Vihtavuori N560                    109.3     48.4     3.14    2815    96.2    63000   14003   1.049  
Accurate MAGPRO                    109.6     50.5     3.27    2805    94.6    63000   14010   1.053  
Alliant Reloder-22                 109.6     48.0     3.11    2799    98.0    63000   13578   1.053  
IMR 7828 SSC                       107.5     47.9     3.10    2794    96.5    63000   13526   1.043  
Alliant Reloder-17                  96.6     43.9     2.85    2787   100.0    63000   12325   1.054  
Ramshot Magnum                     108.8     51.4     3.33    2774    98.4    63000   12985   1.045  
Alliant Reloder-16                 103.3     43.6     2.83    2764   100.0    63000   12179   1.064  
Ramshot Hunter                     101.3     45.4     2.94    2755    99.5    63000   12613   1.061  
Alliant Reloder-19                 105.9     45.9     2.98    2754    97.8    63000   12882   1.055  
Winchester 760                      95.7     43.9     2.84    2750    99.1    63000   12606   1.063  
Hodgdon H414                        95.7     43.9     2.84    2750    99.1    63000   12606   1.063  
Norma URP                          100.9     43.3     2.80    2737   100.0    63000   12114   1.068  
Vihtavuori N550                     98.0     43.4     2.81    2736   100.0    63000   12256   1.072  
Accurate 4350                      100.1     43.4     2.81    2734   100.0    63000   12096   1.083  
Norma 204                          100.3     44.9     2.91    2729    97.6    63000   12511   1.057  
Hodgdon H4831 SC                   106.9     46.8     3.04    2724    95.7    63000   12562   1.053  
IMR 4831                           105.8     43.9     2.85    2721   100.0    63000   11865   1.076  
Accurate 3100                      109.5     47.5     3.08    2715    99.5    63000   12111   1.084  
Ramshot Big Game                    91.2     42.1     2.73    2712   100.0    63000   11527   1.068  
Hodgdon CFE223                      86.1     41.6     2.70    2711   100.0    63000   11483   1.069  
Winchester Supreme 780             104.2     47.6     3.09    2708    97.6    63000   12199   1.058  
IMR 4895                            90.8     39.4     2.55    2705   100.0    63000   11514   1.075  
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                103.5     43.4     2.81    2703   100.0    63000   11163   1.067  
Alliant Reloder-15                  91.7     39.8     2.58    2699   100.0    63000   11487   1.075  
Norma 203B                          92.1     39.9     2.59    2696   100.0    63000   11391   1.076  
Lovex S070                         100.3     43.0     2.79    2696    99.1    63000   11943   1.078  
Hodgdon H4350                      103.0     43.7     2.83    2695    98.6    63000   11878   1.063  
IMR 4350                           101.1     43.6     2.83    2694    98.6    63000   11858   1.063  
Hodgdon H380                        93.0     41.2     2.67    2694    99.9    63000   11653   1.078  
Hodgdon BL-C2                       86.6     41.0     2.66    2689   100.0    63000   11227   1.079  
IMR 4955 Enduron                   108.0     45.5     2.95    2689    96.0    63000   12159   1.059  
Norma 203 old                       93.4     40.9     2.65    2687   100.0    63000   11220   1.088  
IMR 4320                            93.7     39.9     2.59    2685   100.0    63000   11075   1.061  
Ramshot Wild Boar                   87.1     40.4     2.61    2684   100.0    63000   11222   1.071  
Hodgdon H4895                       88.5     38.4     2.49    2681   100.0    63000   11114   1.075  
Winchester 748                      84.2     39.3     2.55    2680   100.0    63000   10840   1.073  
IMR 4451 Enduron                    96.6     41.4     2.68    2676    98.9    63000   11624   1.062  
Lovex S065                          99.1     42.0     2.72    2676    99.7    63000   11521   1.079  
IMR 4007 SSC                        94.8     41.7     2.70    2673    98.6    63000   11680   1.073  
Ramshot TAC                         87.2     40.8     2.64    2671    99.7    63000   11397   1.069  
Hodgdon VARGET                      94.5     39.6     2.57    2668   100.0    63000   11079   1.065  
IMR 4064                            95.0     38.9     2.52    2660   100.0    63000   10868   1.070  
Lovex D073.6 Match Rifle            88.5     39.6     2.56    2655   100.0    63000   10535   1.092  
Accurate 2520                       86.5     39.6     2.56    2655   100.0    63000   10535   1.092  
Lovex S062                          92.7     39.1     2.53    2654   100.0    63000   10692   1.084  
Vihtavuori N530                     85.5     37.3     2.42    2654   100.0    63000   10647   1.073  
IMR 3031                            91.0     36.9     2.39    2653   100.0    63000   10286   1.082  
IMR 4166 Enduron                    95.8     39.8     2.58    2653    99.0    63000   11249   1.066  
IMR 8208 XBR                        87.5     37.9     2.46    2648   100.0    63000   10554   1.072  
Accurate 4064                       92.9     39.4     2.55    2648   100.0    63000   10514   1.109  
Norma 201                           89.9     38.1     2.47    2645   100.0    63000   10632   1.086  
Ramshot X-Terminator                85.1     39.4     2.55    2643   100.0    63000   10696   1.073  
Vihtavuori N150                    100.8     41.2     2.67    2641   100.0    63000   10474   1.081  
Vihtavuori N540                     91.5     40.1     2.60    2637   100.0    63000   10458   1.081  
Hodgdon H335                        80.6     38.1     2.47    2637   100.0    63000   10303   1.077  
Norma 202                           89.2     38.1     2.47    2634   100.0    63000   10280   1.083  
Accurate 2230                       82.9     38.9     2.52    2633   100.0    63000   10415   1.084  
Accurate 2700                       94.9     42.9     2.78    2630    98.4    63000   11031   1.076  
Lovex D073.5                        83.2     38.7     2.51    2629   100.0    63000   10289   1.094  
Accurate 2460                       83.0     38.7     2.51    2629   100.0    63000   10289   1.094  
Lovex S060                          89.6     37.8     2.45    2625   100.0    63000   10383   1.069  
Hodgdon H322                        85.3     35.9     2.33    2623   100.0    63000    9993   1.075  
Accurate 2495                       87.4     37.1     2.40    2621   100.0    63000   10096   1.116  
Lovex D073.4                        82.0     38.1     2.47    2621   100.0    63000   10144   1.089  
Hodgdon Benchmark                   86.9     37.1     2.40    2611   100.0    63000   10063   1.073  
Vihtavuori N140                     91.3     38.8     2.51    2610   100.0    63000    9906   1.082  
Vihtavuori N135                     97.0     38.1     2.47    2601   100.0    63000    9666   1.092  
Accurate 2200                       79.3     34.9     2.26    2600   100.0    63000    9806   1.072




I'm here to give and receive knowledge, not affirmation or adoration. If you don't like it, mierda dura. Intellectual honesty is not for fragile egos.
Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge] #7161147
05/05/18 04:51 PM
05/05/18 04:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,228
Wise Co.
R
RiverRider Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
RiverRider  Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
R

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,228
Wise Co.
I see LOTS of very good candidates. Varget should burn well, but leaves about 100 fps on the table. Re16 is the first one I would try. But let's not turn this into a reloading discussion any more than we already have. Not fair to Jorge.




I'm here to give and receive knowledge, not affirmation or adoration. If you don't like it, mierda dura. Intellectual honesty is not for fragile egos.
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