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Mar 25th, 2012
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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: Smokey Bear] #7141930
04/16/18 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
No, we are talking about the new battle weapon that is being purchased for our marine snipers, at a staggering per unit cost, to protect American soldiers from long range. Then you took the discussion to civilian target shooters somehow being superior to our US Marine Corp snipers, which I find offensive.


You should be offended. Your $5000 of your tax dollers were spent on what? Per rifle system?

And by the way, the week of my death, there will be 24 hour casket gaurd by Firemen and Police officers, a U.S. flag over my casket, and a full honors funeral with Taps, and Amazing Grace via bagpipes. I've attended, guarded the casket, and folded the flag for more than I care to recount.

Same as a Marine. So I get a say. And I am offended that you would say otherwise.



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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: FiremanJG] #7142123
04/16/18 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
$12,247

$4000 rifle (being generous)

$2500 scope (military discount for large order)

$150 Pelican (large order again)

$400 scope mount

= $7050

What covers the other $5,197 ?


I agree, there is definitely something missing. Maybe extra barrels, suppressors, NV/Thermal included as well?


Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7142192
04/16/18 03:18 PM
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Anyone asking about the price of a $12k rifle that's $7k on the open market doesn't have an understanding of government contracts.

ETA: When you go buy the rifle at the store (or online), do you require the vendor to show proof of verification with all specifications? Do you ask to know the lot number and testing cert for the material used to make the barrel and/or action? Do you require documentation showing competitive bids for each component? Do you require a detailed cost breakdown of each component and an explanation for why it costs as much as it does?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I've seen where contractors paid $600 for a bolt for a government contract when they knew they could get the same thing at tractor supply for $1. It's just a different set of requirements. You're not really paying for the gun. You're paying for the gun and all the proof that it is what you say it is.

Last edited by patriot07; 04/16/18 03:23 PM.
Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: patriot07] #7142297
04/16/18 05:04 PM
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^^Which means it is a flawed system full of bureaucratic waste.



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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: FiremanJG] #7142321
04/16/18 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
^^Which means it is a flawed system full of bureaucratic waste.


Legalized theft from the taxpayers...

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: patriot07] #7142337
04/16/18 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: patriot07
Anyone asking about the price of a $12k rifle that's $7k on the open market doesn't have an understanding of government contracts.

ETA: When you go buy the rifle at the store (or online), do you require the vendor to show proof of verification with all specifications? Do you ask to know the lot number and testing cert for the material used to make the barrel and/or action? Do you require documentation showing competitive bids for each component? Do you require a detailed cost breakdown of each component and an explanation for why it costs as much as it does?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I've seen where contractors paid $600 for a bolt for a government contract when they knew they could get the same thing at tractor supply for $1. It's just a different set of requirements. You're not really paying for the gun. You're paying for the gun and all the proof that it is what you say it is.



This is what you see in aviation maintenance also. Each and every part used must be certified as an aircraft part. Facilities must meet standards, and documentation must back it up. Calibration of equipment used must be documented. There are records for EVERYTHING, and a good deal of work goes into ensuring and documenting compliance...right down to shelf life items such as silicone sealant. It makes aircraft maintenance extremely expensive, but it also makes flying as safe as it is. If I was going into battle, I'd like to know that my equipment is as good as it can possibly be. Our military deserves nothing less.


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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: FiremanJG] #7142348
04/16/18 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
$12,247

$4000 rifle (being generous)

$2500 scope (military discount for large order)

$150 Pelican (large order again)

$400 scope mount

= $7050

What covers the other $5,197 ?


Bullets you gotta have bullets and we all know Chad's bullets ain't cheap.......LOL

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: RiverRider] #7142491
04/16/18 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: patriot07
Anyone asking about the price of a $12k rifle that's $7k on the open market doesn't have an understanding of government contracts.

ETA: When you go buy the rifle at the store (or online), do you require the vendor to show proof of verification with all specifications? Do you ask to know the lot number and testing cert for the material used to make the barrel and/or action? Do you require documentation showing competitive bids for each component? Do you require a detailed cost breakdown of each component and an explanation for why it costs as much as it does?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I've seen where contractors paid $600 for a bolt for a government contract when they knew they could get the same thing at tractor supply for $1. It's just a different set of requirements. You're not really paying for the gun. You're paying for the gun and all the proof that it is what you say it is.



This is what you see in aviation maintenance also. Each and every part used must be certified as an aircraft part. Facilities must meet standards, and documentation must back it up. Calibration of equipment used must be documented. There are records for EVERYTHING, and a good deal of work goes into ensuring and documenting compliance...right down to shelf life items such as silicone sealant. It makes aircraft maintenance extremely expensive, but it also makes flying as safe as it is. If I was going into battle, I'd like to know that my equipment is as good as it can possibly be. Our military deserves nothing less.


You guys do realize these guns are built in house right?


"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: FiremanJG] #7142712
04/17/18 01:27 AM
04/17/18 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
No, we are talking about the new battle weapon that is being purchased for our marine snipers, at a staggering per unit cost, to protect American soldiers from long range. Then you took the discussion to civilian target shooters somehow being superior to our US Marine Corp snipers, which I find offensive.


You should be offended. Your $5000 of your tax dollers were spent on what? Per rifle system?

And by the way, the week of my death, there will be 24 hour casket gaurd by Firemen and Police officers, a U.S. flag over my casket, and a full honors funeral with Taps, and Amazing Grace via bagpipes. I've attended, guarded the casket, and folded the flag for more than I care to recount.

Same as a Marine. So I get a say. And I am offended that you would say otherwise.


You are not the same as a marine. Im a fellow firefighter and I am appalled by this. No one is here to thank you for your service. I have friends and family that are Marines, they are on a different level then us. Firefighter does not equal marine.

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: bo3] #7142719
04/17/18 01:42 AM
04/17/18 01:42 AM
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You have a say too. You are a tax payer.

There's +/- 100 of us die each year, not even including suicide, which unfortunately is overcomimg LODD.



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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: dee] #7142725
04/17/18 01:46 AM
04/17/18 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: dee
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: patriot07
Anyone asking about the price of a $12k rifle that's $7k on the open market doesn't have an understanding of government contracts.

ETA: When you go buy the rifle at the store (or online), do you require the vendor to show proof of verification with all specifications? Do you ask to know the lot number and testing cert for the material used to make the barrel and/or action? Do you require documentation showing competitive bids for each component? Do you require a detailed cost breakdown of each component and an explanation for why it costs as much as it does?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I've seen where contractors paid $600 for a bolt for a government contract when they knew they could get the same thing at tractor supply for $1. It's just a different set of requirements. You're not really paying for the gun. You're paying for the gun and all the proof that it is what you say it is.



This is what you see in aviation maintenance also. Each and every part used must be certified as an aircraft part. Facilities must meet standards, and documentation must back it up. Calibration of equipment used must be documented. There are records for EVERYTHING, and a good deal of work goes into ensuring and documenting compliance...right down to shelf life items such as silicone sealant. It makes aircraft maintenance extremely expensive, but it also makes flying as safe as it is. If I was going into battle, I'd like to know that my equipment is as good as it can possibly be. Our military deserves nothing less.


You guys do realize these guns are built in house right?


Whose house?


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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: RiverRider] #7142728
04/17/18 01:51 AM
04/17/18 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: dee
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: patriot07
Anyone asking about the price of a $12k rifle that's $7k on the open market doesn't have an understanding of government contracts.

ETA: When you go buy the rifle at the store (or online), do you require the vendor to show proof of verification with all specifications? Do you ask to know the lot number and testing cert for the material used to make the barrel and/or action? Do you require documentation showing competitive bids for each component? Do you require a detailed cost breakdown of each component and an explanation for why it costs as much as it does?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I've seen where contractors paid $600 for a bolt for a government contract when they knew they could get the same thing at tractor supply for $1. It's just a different set of requirements. You're not really paying for the gun. You're paying for the gun and all the proof that it is what you say it is.



This is what you see in aviation maintenance also. Each and every part used must be certified as an aircraft part. Facilities must meet standards, and documentation must back it up. Calibration of equipment used must be documented. There are records for EVERYTHING, and a good deal of work goes into ensuring and documenting compliance...right down to shelf life items such as silicone sealant. It makes aircraft maintenance extremely expensive, but it also makes flying as safe as it is. If I was going into battle, I'd like to know that my equipment is as good as it can possibly be. Our military deserves nothing less.


You guys do realize these guns are built in house right?


Whose house?


Big brothers

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: FiremanJG] #7142731
04/17/18 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
You have a say too. You are a tax payer.

There's +/- 100 of us die each year, not even including suicide, which unfortunately is overcomimg LODD.


Im a taxpayer ans I have a say. However I will not put us on the same level as a marine. How many Marines died last year? How many committted suicide last year?

You can't compare gamers in a game to these guys. Its a different skill set.

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: bo3] #7142734
04/17/18 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: bo323
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
You have a say too. You are a tax payer.

There's +/- 100 of us die each year, not even including suicide, which unfortunately is overcomimg LODD.


Im a taxpayer ans I have a say. However I will not put us on the same level as a marine. How many Marines died last year? How many committted suicide last year?

You can't compare gamers in a game to these guys. Its a different skill set.


My job isn't a game. I don't know about yours. I've already addressed we're talking about rifles, and again, the government is behind the curve on what they're issuing to these guys. And it is costing more money than it should.



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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: FiremanJG] #7142774
04/17/18 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: bo323
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
You have a say too. You are a tax payer.

There's +/- 100 of us die each year, not even including suicide, which unfortunately is overcomimg LODD.


Im a taxpayer ans I have a say. However I will not put us on the same level as a marine. How many Marines died last year? How many committted suicide last year?

You can't compare gamers in a game to these guys. Its a different skill set.


My job isn't a game. I don't know about yours. I've already addressed we're talking about rifles, and again, the government is behind the curve on what they're issuing to these guys. And it is costing more money than it should.


No. You said we are the same as Marines. We are not. I never said our job was a game. The gamer comment was about your shooting versus them. Again your setup and experience is to play the prs game not hunt men. I believe Sapper is inna better position to comment on what these guys need then you. How much more does your equipment cost just because of the NFPA then it should?

Last edited by bo323; 04/17/18 02:28 AM.
Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7142801
04/17/18 02:48 AM
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We serve the public, and it could kill us. I don't understand how you see such a wide margin.

No one has taken anything away from them for what they do, especially not me. And I do know one. Our equipment cost is in the same category, you are exactly right, which is my point.



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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7142838
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Wide margin? We get to be home except for working. They go across the world. No one is actively trying to kill us. Our job is dangerous but more people die in the oilfield.

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: bo3] #7142925
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Originally Posted By: bo323
Wide margin? We get to be home except for working. Plenty get to live with their families and work s day job. Been that way for ever. Many never deployThey go across the world. No one is actively trying to kill us.A Marine being shot or blown up by an I.E.D. is more tragic than a Police Officer or Firefighter being shot, ran over, structual collapse, burned, smoke inhalation, ect? Our job is dangerous but more people die in the oilfield.
I am sorry for the oilfield.

I can guarantee you the Police Officer's funeral I attended in February, his wife and daughters did not believe his death was any less tragic. I am not disrespecing any military branch. But I do not appreciate anyone disrespecting Law Enforcement or the Fire Service either.



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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7143032
04/17/18 01:43 PM
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No. I never disrespected the service. I think its disrespectful to bring out our lodd to argue over military spending. Looks like a cheap way to get a thank you for your service. Never said that one death is less tragic then another. I tried to give you a little perspective. I tried to show you we are not the same as them. Humility is not your strong suit. We have the best job there is. Everyone loves us without even knowing us. The military doesn't have that. Half the country hates them and wants to defund them. You heard Sapper say some units are still using m16s. If they want a better gun, lets get it for them. 308 sucks compared to a 300 win. Its government they overpay for everything and it needs to be fixed.

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7143058
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How long have you been doing it? In 20 years, I can count on two hands the number of "thank you's" I've heard. I don't need it though. We do our job, clear, and get ready for the next one. My point is the same as yours, I want them to have the best of the best, and when they are over paying by 40%, budget cuts are going to force some guys to be using old equipment. And we are also arguing the same side, government over pays. I know how "we" are, professional argue-ers, and that's all it looks like you really want to do. That's fine, I know how as well.



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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7143084
04/17/18 02:22 PM
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If you guys are finished arguing, we can get back to equipment pricing for Uncle Sam. Having tried unsuccessfully many years ago to sell various fuels to the government, i can say that it is not easy or cheap to even try to deal with them. Itís a long, complicated, and frustrating process that is far different from selling to a normal company. Even if they build the rifle in-house, the bits and pieces to make it with have to come in through the bid process and have to meet very tough mil-spec standards. Itís a torturous process, which limits the number of bidders that will deal with it, which i am positive contributes to the higher pricing.

Quite probably, a top level gunsmith/Armorer could produce a rifle and scope package equal in quality to what will be issued to the Marine snipers and do it for 1/3 less cost IF they didnít have to go through the govít bid process.

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7143110
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603Country,

That is the pount, sir. The product you were selling was of no lower quality, I am sure. Bureaucratic red tape is my gripe, which appears to be yours as well.



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Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7143127
04/17/18 03:00 PM
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What if I told you that most of the government regs came about because someone abused the system?


Remember they are trying to optimize an army. Not an individual...

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: FiremanJG] #7143225
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
603Country,

That is the pount, sir. The product you were selling was of no lower quality, I am sure. Bureaucratic red tape is my gripe, which appears to be yours as well.


The flip side is of there was no regulations, anything could be sold to them without being tested. Do you want our guys to be using Anderson rifles? I wouldn't want to go to war with an Anderson.

Re: U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle [Re: jeh7mmmag] #7143250
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There is a military grade NF that is more costly. I have no clue how much but I assume it's more than the normal

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