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Mar 25th, 2012
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New to Dog Training #7130602
04/02/18 10:02 PM
04/02/18 10:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 18
New Braunfels
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Zackthefisherman Offline OP
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First off I want to say hello. I'm relatively new to bird hunting and brand new to bird dog training. I have a 5-month-old GSP that a picked up from a member on here. I've read multiple books and have done a bunch of research on training. Everyone has their own way of doing things, and I understand that I need to figure out what works best for me and my dog. With that said I have a few specific questions for you experienced guys. For now, I have no interest in the competitive side of this. I just want a dog that can reliably hunt quail, pheasants, dove, and maybe some waterfowl.

I've started off with some basic obedience trying to keep things fun without too much pressure. The book I've been basing my training on is "The German Shorthaired Pointer" by David Gowdey. He uses a "natural" approach of letting the birds train the dog which makes a lot of sense to me. Unlike most people, he doesn't use whoa. I'm starting to think I should train my dog whoa from at least a safety standpoint but I would like y'alls opinion on this.

Secondly, I've trained sit from the very beginning. I regularly use it in the house and have trained him to sit before being commanded to fetch. So far he is a great natural retriever. My thought on this was to train him to sit still for dove hunting which I'm hoping he will be able to start this fall. The more I read, I'm now beginning to question whether this will affect his pointing? Should I drop sit all together or will it really have any effect on his pointing?

His only experience pointing has been a quail wing on a string hidden in the grass. He quickly began point, but after a few sessions he caught on to the fishing pole. So I dropped it all together. I'm planning to join the GSP Club of San Antonio and utilizing their training lease. Hopefully, I can meet some experienced members to show me the ropes when it's time to introduce to live birds. Sorry, this went longer than I intended and I really appreciate everyone's feed back.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7130685
04/02/18 11:22 PM
04/02/18 11:22 PM
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Posts: 50,401
Katy-Fulshear
bill oxner Offline
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welcome

Great question. Training a pointing to sit has always been a great trolling question. The theory is that it will teach the pup to set under pressure. I've never done it. Growdey is a great source. I differ a little with him about letting the birds train the pup, simply because it takes more birds. I'm more of a Delmar Smith advocate. He says take the dogs off of birds and don't take them back to the field until they are fully broke. Both methods work. My last put was broke on nine flushes. A lot depends on the pup.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill







Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7130726
04/02/18 11:53 PM
04/02/18 11:53 PM
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Wimberley, Tx
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Teach whoa first in my opinion. Whoa is absolutely most important for an upland bird dog. If your dog won't whoa he's no longer a pointing dog. Useless in my opinion.

While This isn't near important as whoa but you can teach him to quarter in front of you. Sometimes when your hunting you'll want to position your dog to cover a field completely or hit a specific cover so I taught mine at four months on a check cord how to quarter.

I dove hunt with mine so from the beginning whenever there is a bird over head I say "watch em" it's kind of like mark..it means I'm about to shoot so heads up. This is just for pass shooting but it works well. Over the years it really pays off. If I say watchem, she freezes and watches the sky. She gets all those doves that glide off. She will stay with em till they crash.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7130844
04/03/18 01:51 AM
04/03/18 01:51 AM
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Dallas, TX
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Do yourself a favor and spend the money and get the perfection kennels dvd the “Perfect Start” if you are training your first dog.. Trained my first dog that I got in 2017 and had him hold his birds, obeying commands, and killing birds over him in his first season. It’s idiot proof and no BS (I.e. no barrels, no whoa post, no ridiculous sequence for learning). You never see anybody talk about it on the forums really...at least I haven’t. Hickox and Delmar stuff certainly has a following but, I could have saved myself a lot of time and money if I just would have started with the Perfect Start DVD. Perfect Start will take you from cradle to grave for everything you need to start shooting birds over your dog and hunting him. IT IS EASY with that dvd and a dog that has any bird sense.


In dog beers, I've only had one.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131002
04/03/18 11:39 AM
04/03/18 11:39 AM
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You will be fine having taught sit but you also need to teach whoa. If the dog sits on whoa at first stand him back up and be patient. For a versatile hunting dog you will need both commands and a reliable recall. I would also advise you to read up on introducing gunfire and birds. Then start putting the pup on some birds. Lots of birds. Good luck to both you and the new dog. Hopefully the two of you have a lot of good times to come.


Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131198
04/03/18 02:26 PM
04/03/18 02:26 PM
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Posts: 50,401
Katy-Fulshear
bill oxner Offline
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Here's a thread I started several years ago. You'll have to use your imagination. Photobucket took all the pictures away.


Originally Posted By: bill oxner
I've had a few PMs asking about my training method. I did this on another forum, so I still have the pictures in my album, so here goes;

All bird dogs point. The breaking process teaches them to hold point. There are two ways to teach a dog to hold point, with dozens of variations. The first way is to let the birds train the pups. That generally involves launchers and pigeons, with some whoa breaking mixed in. It's very effective. I use the Delmar Smith method, substituting the e-collar for the bump under the chin. My dogs are completely whoa broke before I put them on birds. I use pen raised quail, because I can be done with them for the summer. I like to start in August, and finish in time for hunting season.

I start off on the whoa post. I introduce the e-collar the same day, that I introduce the whos post. Here's cracker on her first day with the whoa post;



I keep them on the whoa post only until I can get out in front of them, and then go to the yard for heel and whoa. Cracker tended to sit, so I had to start with the suitcase hitch. I go from the yard to longer walks. The pup has pretty well gotten it down after three weeks.



I then go from the walks to whoa in the field. Here's Cracker in the field in the field, before I put her on birds. This whole process has taken me around four weeks.



This is her first day on birds. I train alone, so I had to plant the bird, where I could wrap the CC around a bush. Notice the slack CC.



I kept her on the CC for three training days. She only went around on the bird one time. Here she is after 9 training flushes.




I started walking some of the birds out after a few days. Here you go;





A lot depends on the pup, and you have to adjust for each pup. Cracker has never taken out a single pointed bird or covey.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill







Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131224
04/03/18 02:50 PM
04/03/18 02:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 18
New Braunfels
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Zackthefisherman Offline OP
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Thanks for all the replies. I think I'm going to take MI2TX advice and invest in the Perfect Start DVDs and stick with their program. I feel like a good video will be easier for me to follow than a book. I'll try my best to keep y'all updated on his progress and hopefully I will be able to share a report or two this fall.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131255
04/03/18 03:11 PM
04/03/18 03:11 PM
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Not teaching whoa to a bird dog is a real mistake. If that is what the guy advocates, I'd toss the book.
I prefer the Smith videos to Perfect Start.
Once the dog knows whoa you should use it constantly.
Whoa before the start of a hunt, at gates and doors -- reinforce it over and over.
Whoa before crossing street, even when on lead.
The three important commands are go with me, here, whoa.
They should be reinforced daily. You want to get to the point where you can whoa the dog in the field and change directions and give the go command to start it in a new direction.
BTW you don't really want to use whoa to teach a dog to point. You want the dog to learn that
birds take off it it puts on too much pressure and learn that pointing holds the bird. If you try to whoa a dog into pointing they will likely decide that it can close on the bird until you stop it--you want the dog to use their own judgement about how close to get to the bird.

Last edited by Mundo; 04/03/18 03:13 PM.
Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131298
04/03/18 03:59 PM
04/03/18 03:59 PM
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Spring, Tx
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I've trained one to dove,duck,goose,quail,and pheasant hunt with me.
I did all the started training on quail first. After he was steady on birds, I started the dove, and waterfowl training.
Its tough on a young pointer, to sit still for long lengths of time.
So his first year of dove hunting, I would give him short breaks to run, if the action was slow.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131359
04/03/18 05:02 PM
04/03/18 05:02 PM
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I read a book one time… can’t remember the name of it as it has been years ago that said “the 5 most important commands you can teach a bird dog are:
Whoa
Whoa
Whoa
Whoa
and Whoa.”

I have always started (and firmly believe that) and my pups do best and come along much faster if they have a strong basic obedience or “control command” structure. It’s important to me to be able to control my dog before I let him loose on birds. As Mundo says; this is basically a here command (I use “HERE”) and stop command “WHOA” and a go or release command, I use “OK”.

From the time I get a pup and they are old enough to walk on a lead, I get a 25’ check cord and begin walking them around the neighborhood, ballfields, school, jogging trails, etc, etc. letting them run and cast while working those three commands. If I command “HERE”, I make the pup come to me by reeling in the check cord. If I say “WHOA” I gently stop him with the CC. if he moves back to me, I replace him in the exact spot he left from and reinforce “WHOA”, each time releasing to walk again with “OK”. I use various sequences of this so he doesn’t get command smart knowing that every time I stop him, he’s going to get a “here” next. I’ll use “whoa,here,ok”… then maybe “here, ok” the maybe “whoa, ok”. We WHOA at street corners, etc, etc. Usually within a couple of weeks of doing this on daily walks (20-30 times a walk) the commands will begin to stick. This is very important to me to have a strong control foundation before I move to other various stages of training i.e. live birds, backing, quartering, e- collars, whistles, etc, etc. It just makes everything easier.

I don’t teach sit because I don’t use it. but my wife will put that command on our pups and it’s never caused me any issues. If I want the dog to stay next to me in a dove field, I call him over and tell him WHOA. He stays. They will learn what you want… GSP’s and very smart and biddable dogs and I am convinced that my GSP knows the difference when we are hunting doves, quail, or blood tracking… he also knows if I am on foot, a SxS or on a quail truck and ranges accordingly. He also knows how to act in the house. Basically, they can have “the switch”, hunt/no hunt.

My big advice is to always be consistent and the dog will figure it out pretty quick. I do my best to train “by exception”, I train basic control on the dog, then evaluate them over time to see what they do naturally and what they don’t while working them on live birds. if I have an issue, then I train to work around it. A pointing dog should point naturally, most will back naturally if they are worked with other dogs and in the right environment, if they don’t we fix that. Most GSP’s I have had all retrieve naturally and all have hunted dead naturally when exposed to it correctly. I use the same method Oxner uses on dead, I drop food on the floor and then call the dog and say “DEAD”, they find the food and pretty quickly they learn “DEAD” means “search” for something you like… it transfers over to dead birds in the field in like one or two tries!

Good luck with the pup and keep us updated.



Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131635
04/03/18 09:57 PM
04/03/18 09:57 PM
Joined: May 2017
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Texas
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Smokey Bear Offline
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OP, in reading the advice of the various bird dog owners the glaring commonality is a strong obedience foundation. The other thing I takeaway from this thread is each of us advise you based on how we use our own dogs.
Along that line of thinking: I will share some advice given to me by my grandfather when he gave me my first bird dog. Make two lists.
1-all the things you want the dog to be able to do.
2-all the things you don't want it to do.

With those two lists you can sit down with a mentor or an experienced trainer and break them down to their simplest steps. Then you can tailor a logical training progression to achieve your goals for your new pup. (You may have to pay for a trainers time). Hopefully the end result will more closely match your vision of what you hope to do with your hunting dog. You can also refer back to your lists and see where you are as you train toward what you desire.

As a for instance, my current dog is a year and a half old versatile and I do a lot with it. Last year I hunted ducks, geese, dove, quail, woodcock, pheasant, Hungarian partridge, and sharptail grouse with it. I also used it to blood trail 4 deer. A lot of the training I do would be a waste of time to someone who solely hunts upland birds....in general advanced retrieving skills take much more training than upland or blood work. All training requires consistency and balance to get the most out of a given dogs ability. I overlay voice commands with both whistle and hand signals. The whistle cuts through wind and distance. The hand signals because it's almost always advantageous to run silent. Teaching an upland dog to "whoa" in my opinion is necessary. Instead of the command "whoa" I use "EEZEE". My hunting buddy hacks on his dog with whoa too much for my taste, so EEZEE avoids anyone inadvertently telling my dogs to whoa. What I am getting at is train your dog to hunt the way that best serves you.

Good luck with the new pup and enjoy the journey.


Last edited by Smokey Bear; 04/03/18 10:36 PM.

Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131752
04/04/18 12:07 AM
04/04/18 12:07 AM
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Katy-Fulshear
bill oxner Offline
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I keep my mouth shut and let my e-collar do the talking once the pup has gone through the breaking process.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill







Re: New to Dog Training [Re: bill oxner] #7131853
04/04/18 01:28 AM
04/04/18 01:28 AM
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Texas
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Smokey Bear Offline
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
I keep my mouth shut and let my e-collar do the talking once the pup has gone through the breaking process.


Train for what suits you. I do subscribe to putting the whistle in you pocket and leaving it there most of the time. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with advising a first time pointer owner to get too jiggy with an ecollar. I've seen that go bad on more than one occasion.


Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7131949
04/04/18 03:00 AM
04/04/18 03:00 AM
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Dallas, TX
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MI2TX Offline
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You won’t regret getting the Perfect Start. If you don’t know anything about training a bird dog, this video will get you on your way. I’d suggest getting a subscription to the pointing dog journal as well if you are interested in gathering more knowledge from some of the best in the biz. Feel free to pm me. I am happy to talk about it. Otherwise, have fun and good luck with your dog. It’s been really rewarding training my own dog.


In dog beers, I've only had one.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7132060
04/04/18 12:00 PM
04/04/18 12:00 PM
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DFW Area
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I wouldn't put a lot of pressure on a pup to whoa until about 7 months. Its a heavy control command and you can mess around and take some fire out of them if you do it when they are 5 months and on the softer side. You can also go too hard on it and take some of the natural desire to retrieve out of them (hey dumb arse, you hammered down on me to not get the bird...now you want me to get the bird in my mouth...I'm confused?). Speaking from experience.

I did some research on the let them figure it out method/No whoa their first year method, trainer near Krum that is a big advocate of it that a buddy used that had a real soft french pointer. In the end, decided I was too old of a dog myself to learn new tricks and trained this last pup similar to what I always did which is a blend of Wolters and Delmar Smith and she came out fine.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7132293
04/04/18 03:46 PM
04/04/18 03:46 PM
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Zackthefisherman Offline OP
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Thanks again for all the responses. I'm definitely going to take Smokey's advice about making a list of wants and don't wants.

I have another question regarding dove hunting. I'm a junior in college (Texas State) so I probably won't be able to afford a quail lease for the next few years. My plan is to do most of my quail hunting on public lands such as Matador and the Chapparal. I'm also looking into out of state options. My point is I will be doing a lot more dove hunting vs quail hunting in my pups first years. Will this have any effect on his quail hunting abilities down the road?

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7132419
04/04/18 06:12 PM
04/04/18 06:12 PM
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A lot of upland dogs don't begin to understand while bird behavior until their third or even fourth year. (They will point but may be befuddled by wise running birds.)
The later you get the dog into wild birds, the fewer years he has as a great dog.
No, dove hunting usually won't impact his work on quail. When dove hunting be careful of the heat and understand that a lot of dogs have trouble with dove feathers at first.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7132968
04/05/18 02:54 AM
04/05/18 02:54 AM
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Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7139904
04/13/18 11:56 AM
04/13/18 11:56 AM
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Have you thought about taking your dog to NAVHDA training? There might be a chapter near you. They do monthly training and usually have a pro level trainer to give you advice. Been taking my dog since she was 5mo's.

If you use pen raised birds for training, DON'T let your dog catch them....

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7139986
04/13/18 01:43 PM
04/13/18 01:43 PM
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I am more dave gowdy type. Whoa is the most abused word in training. Mundo made an important point about whoa. Dont use it to tell a dog to point birds. And thats what we are talking about here training for bird hunting. Not training for crossing the street. Pups breeding will bring out pointing and hunting. You cant teach this.

If i were you concentrate on lousiana woodcock public hunting. Woodcock are excellent birds for young pointers

Last edited by blanked; 04/13/18 01:45 PM.
Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7140002
04/13/18 02:03 PM
04/13/18 02:03 PM
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Definitely need to wean them from whoa.. I had to use it for a while as I had a creeper, but once we figured that out backed way off and only use if necessary.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7140109
04/13/18 04:11 PM
04/13/18 04:11 PM
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To give ya'll an update I've had the Perfect Finish Dvd for about a week now. Seeing a professional work on untrained dogs has really helped me understand the training methods and has given me a lot more confidence. I've been using Jon's method for teaching whoa in the backyard and so far so good. Hopefully, I will have some pigeons soon so I can begin the introduction to wild birds.

Blanked, thanks for the tip on Woodcock. Being in college I have a 6-week long winter break. I'm hoping to make at least one out of state hunting trip this winter. I've been doing a lot of research already on Kansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and I'll add Lousiana to the list too.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7140123
04/13/18 04:42 PM
04/13/18 04:42 PM
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If you can’t stop ‘em, you can’t train them. One whoa should stop them. Make sure the dog is whoa broke before you go to the field. Never talk to a dog on point. He ain’t listening anyway. Silence is golden. If the pup is creeping, try to pick him up, shake him, and re-plant him. If he creeps and takes a bird out, you need to use a little vinegar instead of honey. These dogs are tougher than you think. They get it.

Re: New to Dog Training [Re: Zackthefisherman] #7231493
07/21/18 02:32 PM
07/21/18 02:32 PM
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I want to give an update on my pup, and I have a new question regarding training. I took everyone's advice and whoa trained him. I have been training him based off the Perfect Start DVD, and he has whoa down pretty good at this point. I'm planning on doing lots of pigeon work over the next month or so before I get to preoccupied with dove season. I don't plan on hunting him much this dove season, but I might take him out a few times later in the season.

So now to my question. I have yet to introduce him to gunfire. Again, I'm going to use the method from the Perfect Start DVD. One person shoots from a distance and at the same time, I will throw a dead bird or dummy for the dog slowly working closer. I noticed that Gun Dog Supply sells Fiocchi 12-Gauge Primer Poppers which are apparently about the same noise level as a .22 blank. Instead of buying a blank pistol, I'm thinking about saving money and using these instead. Is that a good idea or should I just go with a blank pistol?

I am convinced that if pointing doesn't work out he will at least make a decent retriever. After every training session, I reward him with a game of fetch and he cannot get enough. In the evenings, hundreds of white wings come into roost in my neighborhood. He goes crazy with his head up chasing these birds. It is a nice way to get him an hour or two of exercise without any effort on my part!

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