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Mar 25th, 2012
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Poor groups and fliers. Midway blems to blame?? #7117927
03/20/18 10:56 PM
03/20/18 10:56 PM
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Chad said earlier today that 3 does not make a group and I tend to agree these days. I only had one decent group today and it didnít make me too happy. Not sure that I didnít blow the last two groups out of frustration. Had I only shot 3 I would have had 3 excellent groups. But so be it.

Using Lapua brass, H4350, 140 Amax blems, CCI primers.

Dang bullet is jumping .080Ē with only .2Ē of bearing surface left. Not sure how far I can stick it out there.

Loaded from 42.7-44.5 in .3 increments. 5 shot groups.

Tikka T3 LH Hunter 6.5x55. Leupold VX-6 HD 3-18 in Talley LW.

I must say the glass is impressive. I could even tell which impact was which on the one 3 shot cloverleaf I had as well the two strings.

Last edited by wp75169; 03/20/18 11:14 PM.
Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7117929
03/20/18 10:59 PM
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bang

As you can see the ones that had potential were spread out as far as powder charge. I have no idea where Iím going wrong.

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7117956
03/20/18 11:32 PM
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My first thought is barrel heat. Those Sporter barrels don't tolerate very many shots, before they're warm. If you recall, I agree 5 shots is better, but on those barrels, I just don't think they can go past 3 consecutive shots very quickly. My T-3 barrel, I only keep it to 3 shots as well, it will throw every shot afterward, most of the time.

If it were me, I would call 44.2 gr good, and go with it. I assume this rifle is to hunt with anyway, so you really only need that first shot to go in the right place. It takes time, and sometimes is a good idea to bring a second rifle, but the next thing I would do, is (with that load) make sure the cold bore shot goes exactly where it is supoosed to, every time. So shoot one, and correct zero if needed. Do something else for 10 minutes, and repeat the process.

Last week, after cleaning and re-fouling, I adjusted zero, but did not re-shoot it (I know the scope tracks properly) next day was at the fire station, day after that, I checked zero. It was perfect, could not be dialed in any tighter, I did not fire the rifle at all the rest of the day. The day after that, I shot 300 yards, then 400 yards, and impacts were exactly where they should be.



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7117957
03/20/18 11:33 PM
03/20/18 11:33 PM
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Time between shots?


Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7117971
03/20/18 11:50 PM
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I think time between shots was a giant factor. The more frustrated I got the faster I shot as well. I think after having an exceptional rifle my expectations are way to high for what Iím dealing with.

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118361
03/21/18 12:56 PM
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Ok, so now you know that the rifle isn't consistent after about shots 4 or 5. That's ok, it's a hunting rifle where shot 1, and maybe a shot 2 are most important. With 6 groups of 5 rounds each, this test ammo should have taken you about an hour and a half to shoot all of them. If you took less time than that, barrel heat could easily be a factor. Most accuracy nodes are about in 1 to 1.5 grain spread, depending on a few factors. So, your spread is about right on for finding good accuracy between groups. I would run with 44.2 grain load in a heart beat. It helps to know how well you did on shots 4 and 5, or if it's a rifle issue. But, when you have a tight group going, those shots 4 and 5 are the most difficult shots to make. (I've had several near one hole groups going to only screw it up on my end).



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118395
03/21/18 01:21 PM
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I definitely could have screwed it up on my end but I felt good about shot 4 for sure. Shot 5 I couldnít say for certain. I was kinda grumpy after shot 4. I didnít show all the targets. One of which was a nicely spread out .9Ē group. It was also the lowest charge. Again Iím certain I didnít allow proper cooling time. Some of the shots were only 20-30 seconds apart. I think I got used to shooting 10 rounds back to back with no variation. Yes, I know, I shouldnít have sold that rifle. The guy I sold it to gave it to his grandson as a deer rifle. Between you and JGs opinion I think Iíll load 10 rounds of the 44.2 and give it proper cooling time between shots. Then Iíll know where I am at. If I canít get 5 under .5 like that Iíll go back to the drawing board. Maybe the rifle wonít do it but I think itís in there somewhere.

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118522
03/21/18 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: wp75169
If I canít get 5 under .5 like that Iíll go back to the drawing board. Maybe the rifle wonít do it but I think itís in there somewhere.


I would not beat myself up over it if its a hunting rifle. Your first 3 shots are impressive anyway, all it takes is one bullet, 2nd for a follow up maybe.

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118584
03/21/18 03:25 PM
03/21/18 03:25 PM
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^^^ Exactly. You have to remember what kind of rifle you are shooting. I talk to customers about this all the time. If you want a one hole target rifle that can put 5-10 rounds in one hole, we need to be shooting a rifle that is capable of doing that, like a target rifle with a heavier contour barrel.

My personal Howa in 270 Win will stack about 4 shots nice and tight. After 4 shots, groups will open up some. It's normal for a hunting rifle. I'll keep shooting it at longer ranges and it will do decent, but not as tight as the first few rounds.



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118615
03/21/18 04:02 PM
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Why don't you get one of those yellow cooling thing'es?

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118617
03/21/18 04:07 PM
03/21/18 04:07 PM
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Pffft. Those aren't fliers anyway. Clearly those are just part of the group. At least according to the drive-by shooters.

stir



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118620
03/21/18 04:13 PM
03/21/18 04:13 PM
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stir ^^ Yes!!



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: FiremanJG] #7118622
03/21/18 04:16 PM
03/21/18 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Pffft. Those aren't fliers anyway. Clearly those are just part of the group. At least according to the drive-by shooters.

stir


Flier or not, they are definitely part of the group.


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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7118629
03/21/18 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Pffft. Those aren't fliers anyway. Clearly those are just part of the group. At least according to the drive-by shooters.

stir


Flier or not, they are definitely part of the group.


So if he had the DBM for it, two 10 round mags, and a 5 round loaded, and shot all 25 as fast as he could, and the rifle puts them all inside a 12" circle, that makes the rifle a 12 MOA shooter?

Give me a break.



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: FiremanJG] #7118655
03/21/18 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Pffft. Those aren't fliers anyway. Clearly those are just part of the group. At least according to the drive-by shooters.

stir


Flier or not, they are definitely part of the group.


So if he had the DBM for it, two 10 round mags, and a 5 round loaded, and shot all 25 as fast as he could, and the rifle puts them all inside a 12" circle, that makes the rifle a 12 MOA shooter?

Give me a break.


Only a complete moron would use this idiotic practice to establish what kind of shooter his rifle is.

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: Jgraider] #7118664
03/21/18 04:49 PM
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So you're calling QSYB an moron, or me?
popcorn

This rifle's fliers are due to heat. Some of us know that. It shoots great while cool. Every rifle has a line, that when crossed, shoots poorly. This one cannot handle beyond 3 consecutive shots, and it is routine, and clear to see.



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: FiremanJG] #7118733
03/21/18 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG

This rifle's fliers are due to heat. Some of us know that. It shoots great while cool. Every rifle has a line, that when crossed, shoots poorly. This one cannot handle beyond 3 consecutive shots, and it is routine, and clear to see.


No schitt Sherlock? smile

Last edited by Jgraider; 03/21/18 05:57 PM.
Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: Jgraider] #7118758
03/21/18 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jgraider
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG

This rifle's fliers are due to heat. Some of us know that. It shoots great while cool. Every rifle has a line, that when crossed, shoots poorly. This one cannot handle beyond 3 consecutive shots, and it is routine, and clear to see.


No schitt Sherlock? smile


So which part earned "moron", and "idiotic " according to you?



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: FiremanJG] #7118769
03/21/18 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG


So if he had the DBM for it, two 10 round mags, and a 5 round loaded, and shot all 25 as fast as he could, and the rifle puts them all inside a 12" circle, that makes the rifle a 12 MOA shooter?

Give me a break.



This whole thing.

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: Jgraider] #7118772
03/21/18 06:46 PM
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See, in teaching, that is what is called "an illustration", in this case of a scientific process.

But I will break ir down for you, since evidently when you don't understand something, you resort to anger. That was to point out as a steel barrel heats, it becomes more flexible, and it changes the usual barrel harmonics, that are normally associated with a cool barrel that shoots well. So a hot barrel has new harmonics and begins to shoot poorly.

I am sorry I cannot provide a coloring book for you follow along with. Maybe it would keep you in a better mood and prevent name calling.



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118780
03/21/18 06:52 PM
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You're so predictably pathetic, always resorting to the same condescending attitudes and posts. You can stir the pot with someone else.

BTW, I got to visit with Todd Hodnett not long ago. He's never heard of you. Adios Amigo.

Last edited by Jgraider; 03/21/18 06:52 PM.
Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118855
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If you are trying to measure your system then you test in the way you plan to use it


If this is a hunting rifle and you can take the time for the barrel to cool then the system is capable of tight groups.

If this is designed to let rounds fly fast then you test that way and the system accuracy is different

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: Cleric] #7118887
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Originally Posted By: Cleric
If you are trying to measure your system then you test in the way you plan to use it


If this is a hunting rifle and you can take the time for the barrel to cool then the system is capable of tight groups.

If this is designed to let rounds fly fast then you test that way and the system accuracy is different


I was doing load development and quite admittedly got frustrated. I know the rifle has a lite barrel and I shouldnít have pushed it like I did. It will get a second chance with me in a better frame of mind this time around. It at best will be an excellent hunter/long range Hunter. I do want perfect groups and I will continue to seek that. If only to ring the gong at range one time and put it up. I am more of a shooter than a hunter. Hunting at this point in my life is a social event. I tend to be meticulous about my loading although admittedly I donít always do it right. Itís 100% entertainment for me when I sit down behind a rifle. I lost sight of that yesterday.

Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: Jgraider] #7118966
03/21/18 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jgraider
You're so predictably pathetic, always resorting to the same condescending attitudes and posts. You can stir the pot with someone else.

BTW, I got to visit with Todd Hodnett not long ago. He's never heard of you. Adios Amigo.


So you start it, then get butt hurt with a reply in your same attitude. Got it.

News for you, you can draw Todd all you want, but that does not make you him.



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Re: Poor groups and fliers, yes, fliers [Re: wp75169] #7118971
03/21/18 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: wp75169
Originally Posted By: Cleric
If you are trying to measure your system then you test in the way you plan to use it


If this is a hunting rifle and you can take the time for the barrel to cool then the system is capable of tight groups.

If this is designed to let rounds fly fast then you test that way and the system accuracy is different


I was doing load development and quite admittedly got frustrated. I know the rifle has a lite barrel and I shouldnít have pushed it like I did. It will get a second chance with me in a better frame of mind this time around. It at best will be an excellent hunter/long range Hunter. I do want perfect groups and I will continue to seek that. If only to ring the gong at range one time and put it up. I am more of a shooter than a hunter. Hunting at this point in my life is a social event. I tend to be meticulous about my loading although admittedly I donít always do it right. Itís 100% entertainment for me when I sit down behind a rifle. I lost sight of that yesterday.


As far as I'm concerned you have done everything right with your hand load, and you did a fine job shooting it. Your barrel contour is to blame here, not you. I just don't think it can tolerate more than 3 shots. So look at shots 1, 2, 3. Good load, and good shooting. up



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