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Mar 25th, 2012
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Group Size vs Optic #7084723
02/19/18 04:53 PM
02/19/18 04:53 PM
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Lubbock, TX
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QuitShootinYoungBucks Offline OP
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I see a lot of people talking about a weapon being .5, 1 MOA, etc. I rarely see somebody post the magnification they are shooting with. IYO, don't you shoot a better group with higher magnification or at least a thinner reticle?




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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7084731
02/19/18 04:58 PM
02/19/18 04:58 PM
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It is always said it is harder to hold steady (or it appears to be) on higher magnification. I agree with that, but with that said you cannot shoot what you cannot see.

My old Leupold VxII 3x9 has been a great scope for me on a hunting rifle, but even on 9 power shooting at 100 yards the crosshairs cover the bullseye making it more difficult to take a precise aim. You can do other things to combat it, but I find it easier to do with slightly more magnification.


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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7084746
02/19/18 05:15 PM
02/19/18 05:15 PM
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I'd say it depends. I've shot with some FFP scopes that had very thick reticles and I struggled to see enough of the aiming point to shoot a group. Surprisingly, some of these rifles turned in very tight groups. It might have been that I was concentrating more to shoot them better.

For the best for shooting, I like the SFP scopes, and prefer my Nightforce 5.5-22 scopes for the really fine reticles.



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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: redchevy] #7084757
02/19/18 05:21 PM
02/19/18 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
It is always said it is harder to hold steady (or it appears to be) on higher magnification. I agree with that, but with that said you cannot shoot what you cannot see.


The wobble is still there, whether it's on 10x or 40x. On higher power magnification, you just see the wobble more.

The problem with higher power scopes becomes mirage. On a sunny day, you crank up a scope to 20x or more, and the aiming point starts to dance in the mirage. To combat this, you dial down in magnification. I often have to dial down to 12x or 15x to reduce the mirage.



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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7084811
02/19/18 06:00 PM
02/19/18 06:00 PM
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For load workups I use highest magnification.



Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7084818
02/19/18 06:03 PM
02/19/18 06:03 PM
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I have all the MOAR-T reticles, on my ATACR's / NSX except for one rifle, in which the lines measures .0625 MOA thick and the MOAR has .100 MOA thick. I have the .100 thick reticle on my 6.5 x 284 and it covers the tiny small white dots on smaller diamonds the Redfield targets and the MOAR-T does not due to the thinner lines. You can see smaller targets at longer ranges with thinner lines than the thicker ones. I use the highest magnifications and if need be I would reduce magnification to reduce mirage.

Last edited by TackDriver; 02/19/18 06:03 PM.
Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7084939
02/19/18 07:56 PM
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The vast majority of my shooting is done with a 2.5-8 power VX3's. I have one 3-9 power scope, but it's on a 30-06 I rarely shoot. I get groups from .1 to .7 moa (least accurate rifle I have that I shoot regularly). A higher magnification can't buy you skill. All it's going to do is magnify your shortcomings. Some shooters will start chasing the target on a close up shot because they see how the reticle moves more than they expected. This means they start focusing on the target instead of the reticle too.

Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: tenyearsgone] #7084982
02/19/18 08:37 PM
02/19/18 08:37 PM
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Lewisville, TX
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Originally Posted By: tenyearsgone
The vast majority of my shooting is done with a 2.5-8 power VX3's. I get groups from .1 to .7 moa


~.1" to .7" groups, huh. On low power scopes. Seriously. If so, come to this Match and I'll buy your entry fee to show me.



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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7085007
02/19/18 08:56 PM
02/19/18 08:56 PM
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Kingsland, TX
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I have a Leupold 6.5x20x40mm that I keep "loose" just for load development. I had on an AR last time. Looks funny but makes determining the accuracy level of a rifle & load easier to judge. Once I'm "dialed-in", the normal sites go on the rifle.


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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: tenyearsgone] #7085026
02/19/18 09:16 PM
02/19/18 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: tenyearsgone
The vast majority of my shooting is done with a 2.5-8 power VX3's. I have one 3-9 power scope, but it's on a 30-06 I rarely shoot. I get groups from .1 to .7 moa (least accurate rifle I have that I shoot regularly).

Sure that isn't 1.1 to 1.7? Least accurate rifle?



Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: ChadTRG42] #7085087
02/19/18 10:19 PM
02/19/18 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: tenyearsgone
The vast majority of my shooting is done with a 2.5-8 power VX3's. I get groups from .1 to .7 moa


~.1" to .7" groups, huh. On low power scopes. Seriously. If so, come to this Match and I'll buy your entry fee to show me.


I saw that a couple months ago and really wanted to, but I have to work that weekend. I always see the same members being called out because of their shooting skills and wanted to see how I would do against them in something that's not a bench only environment.

It wasn't easy to get those rifles to shoot that good. Probably close to 100 different combinations of powder and bullets to find which ones work the best. Now, I have boxes of bullets and jars of powder I don't use. Price you pay for accuracy though. Having good barrels and triggers helped too.

I don't consider an 2.5-8 scope low power. I think of something like a 1-4. We'll just have to chalk it up to opinion.

Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: GLC] #7085103
02/19/18 10:30 PM
02/19/18 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: GLC
Originally Posted By: tenyearsgone
The vast majority of my shooting is done with a 2.5-8 power VX3's. I have one 3-9 power scope, but it's on a 30-06 I rarely shoot. I get groups from .1 to .7 moa (least accurate rifle I have that I shoot regularly).

Sure that isn't 1.1 to 1.7? Least accurate rifle?


Out of the ones I use regularly for target practice, they are that accurate with my handloads. I have an M4 clone (irons and thin barrel), and old Czech Mauser I don't expect much out of though. The best ones are my AR's with LaRue and Rainier barrels. The least is my Marlin 308ME. My 6.8 with a White Oak Armament barrel is the one I got .1 moa with. The load I used isn't as fast as others though.

Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7085170
02/19/18 11:32 PM
02/19/18 11:32 PM
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If I were you I would not worry about missing work . If you went to a National Bench Rest match you would clean house against some of the best shooters in the country . Also you could make about $10,000 in side bets with those guys when you told them you were going to beat them with your AR , a 2.5x scope , hunting grade bullets , with no high performance rest [ bi-pod or tool box maybe ? ] , and no wind flags . Let me know when as I would like to be there to get in on some of the bets .

Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: diablodog] #7085190
02/19/18 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: diablodog
If I were you I would not worry about missing work . If you went to a National Bench Rest match you would clean house against some of the best shooters in the country . Also you could make about $10,000 in side bets with those guys when you told them you were going to beat them with your AR , a 2.5x scope , hunting grade bullets , with no high performance rest [ bi-pod or tool box maybe ? ] , and no wind flags . Let me know when as I would like to be there to get in on some of the bets .


Uh, when did I say any of that? You sure you meant to respond to me? A guy wanted clarification, and I gave it to him. Itís really not hard to shoot accurate if you have good equipment and master the fundamentals.

Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7085375
02/20/18 02:04 AM
02/20/18 02:04 AM
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I dial my SWFA 5-20 HD up to 20x for 100-yard shooting. The image quality is excellent at all magnifications, so there is no need to dial down. Generally for group size, more magnification is better for me. Nice to be able to dial down for other reasons, but there isn't much need to for 100-yard group shooting.

Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7085510
02/20/18 03:33 AM
02/20/18 03:33 AM
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Granbury, TX
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If I'm target shooting and/or working on loads, I generally hang out at the max for my scope. For me that means anywhere from 12x to 16x, depending on the scope. It makes it easier for me to concentrate on a fine aiming point. If I'm hunting it depends on the situation, but it's not unusual for me to be at the upper end of the scale there too.


Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7086349
02/20/18 08:29 PM
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Style of target helps a lot with less magnification. I have posted some pics of nice tight sub 0.5 MOA 100 yard groups that are routinely shot with scopes set at 10-12x. Some of the loads are consistent in the 0.3's. They are shot on targets that match up well with the reticle. My personal favorite is a small diamond shape, but a cross that matches the reticle will work. If the reticle is centered on all 4 corners, you are centered on the bull. The resolution of excellent glass gives you a substantial boost in that respect. Things get much more difficult as distance is extended. Really good glass and matching up target and reticle will help, but when you want to be very precise at long range there is no substitute for magnification.

Edited to add-I am about to shoot now so I will shoot and post a 100 yard group at 10 power which is the max for this scope

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 02/20/18 09:08 PM.

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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7086427
02/20/18 09:35 PM
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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7086463
02/20/18 10:00 PM
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Thatís an amazing group. Savages are my favorite bolt actions. My brother has a Savage 6.5-284 that is very accurate too. Flat shooting as well.

Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7086475
02/20/18 10:14 PM
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Looks like the bolt is on the wrong side?....LOL

J/K Nice group!


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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: pertnear] #7087766
02/21/18 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: pertnear
Looks like the bolt is on the wrong side?....LOL

J/K Nice group!


Yeah. I was blessed a southpaw.


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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: tenyearsgone] #7087775
02/21/18 08:56 PM
02/21/18 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: tenyearsgone
My 6.8 with a White Oak Armament barrel is the one I got .1 moa with. The load I used isn't as fast as others though.


Come on, man! Where would you like me to start with this one? I'm sorry, but seriously. Come spend some time at the range with me and this exact set up, and I'll show you it "ain't" no .1 moa rifle and set up. That's horse manure. A post like that is 100% troll material, or simply a joke. Either way, it's horse manure.



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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: ChadTRG42] #7087799
02/21/18 09:17 PM
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You're not the only one that knows how to reload. 8208 XBR is a great powder. WOA makes amazing barrels too.

Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7087839
02/21/18 09:38 PM
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Re: Group Size vs Optic [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #7087845
02/21/18 09:43 PM
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LOL!




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