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Mar 25th, 2012
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Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin #7052538
01/25/18 04:41 PM
01/25/18 04:41 PM
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The introduction of exotic animals from other countries has its supporters and its proponents. Its no secret that introduction of non-native 4 legged species has been successful, both here in the U.S ( Maryland has a fantastic population of Japanese Sika Deer, Ibex, Oryx and Aoudad in New Mexico, and its no secret about the exotic industry here in Texas) and abroad ( New Zealand had no native ungulates prior to their introduction, nor did Australia, Argentina is about as famous for their Red Stag hunting as New Zealand is, etc.). This has been met with some criticism about its effect on native game here in the U.S.

But what about introducing Native Species to areas where they originally did not roam? Whitetail deer were brought to Anticosti Island, which had no 4 legged life at all, and flourished. Roosevelt elk were brought to Afognak Island in Alaska and now they have some of the largest bodied elk in the world (1100-1200 lbs) Elk have been introduced to West Texas where they did not originally roam or the native Merriam's elk went extinct. Santa Rosa Island in California had some of the largest mule deer in the world when Kaibab genetics were introduced. In that instance all animals (deer and elk) were removed in 2011 from the 54,000 acre island because the powers that be wanted it to be returned to a "pre-European" state.....but what do you expect from California? Colorado had its population imported from Wyoming due to overhunting....now Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world.

From what I understand up until the mid 1970's large areas of Texas naturally did not have much of a population of deer, the Brownwood area was one of them. Imagine going out to that wide expanse of country and looking at tens of thousands of acres and never seeing a deer? The populations we enjoy today were a result of stocking.

So should we be as concerned about Native but not native to the area game that was introduced to areas where they did not originally roam, the same way we concern ourselves with exotics? Or enjoy the opportunities that they provide to hunt in areas that were otherwise devoid of game? Does this factor into your enjoyment of the hunt knowing that these animals "are not from here"?


Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: txtrophy85] #7052571
01/25/18 05:05 PM
01/25/18 05:05 PM
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Native should always come first, funny thing is now a days afonak introduction wouldnít happen. We can be our own worse enemies when we introduce a species to a flora that hasnt had the chance to evolve with that species. It is dangerous.

Sometimes it may take decades to actually see the adverse effects. Like cattle and stationary animal husbandry on the tundra/permafrost.

We have turkeys, elk, deer, mtn goats and even d/bighorn sheep in areas they were thought to never existed. Some would say thatís great, others worry about long term effects. To me itís lessor of the evil compared to introducing sika, ibex, oryx, auadad etc.

Today I wonder/worry more about high densities on shrinking habitat

I consider Texas RM elk more of a forced migration then an importation, Merriam and RM ranges co-mingled a bunch.

At end of the day animals are here on earth as a sustainable resource for human consumption, we just have to careful our stomachs donít cause us to ruin an area.


Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7052572
01/25/18 05:08 PM
01/25/18 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Native should always come first, funny thing is now a days afonak introduction wouldn’t happen. We can be our own worse enemies when we introduce a species to a flora that hasnt had the chance to evolve with that species. It is dangerous.





in that context the Elk on Afognak were as foreign as a Aoudad or Oryx to the New Mexican Desert. Its interesting about the Afognak release....a handful of yearling animals were turned out and left to make their own way. Guess they did.


I have also read that some herds in Arizona still have some Merriams DNA.....you know anything about that?

Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: txtrophy85] #7052580
01/25/18 05:13 PM
01/25/18 05:13 PM
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Exotics donít bother me. I like the added opportunities. I can see why it bothers others.

I would especially like to see elk spread across the state, since they are a natural animal here, and I love them.


Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: txtrophy85] #7052598
01/25/18 05:23 PM
01/25/18 05:23 PM
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invasive species/good management and common sense is good
invasive species/poor management and liberal thinking is bad

all things in moderation

in my opinion creating an artificial habitat thru constant use of supplemental feeds for the benefit of introduced ungulates is a recipe for disaster.

Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: txtrophy85] #7052638
01/25/18 06:00 PM
01/25/18 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: txtrophy85

Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Native should always come first, funny thing is now a days afonak introduction wouldn’t happen. We can be our own worse enemies when we introduce a species to a flora that hasnt had the chance to evolve with that species. It is dangerous.





in that context the Elk on Afognak were as foreign as a Aoudad or Oryx to the New Mexican Desert. Its interesting about the Afognak release....a handful of yearling animals were turned out and left to make their own way. Guess they did.


I have also read that some herds in Arizona still have some Merriams DNA.....you know anything about that?


Thus why Afognak wouldnít happen to day. For the introduction of wolves back into Yellowstone they had to re-name the Canadian wolf, basically declassify the subspecies and push Bergmannís rule.


Itís been hypothesized there where still Merriams floating around Navajo and White Apache. I talked to AZ biologist that said probably a combo of mix DNA coming in from overlap and a few stragglers. I donít know, you would think that after 100 years RM would of diluted it out. At same stand point finding the DNA testing literature is pretty hard.

Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: Sneaky] #7052645
01/25/18 06:09 PM
01/25/18 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sneaky
Exotics donít bother me. I like the added opportunities. I can see why it bothers others.

I would especially like to see elk spread across the state, since they are a natural animal here, and I love them.


I have yet to hunt an "exotic", but same as you, I could stand to see elk closing DFW airport down once in a while...Also agree with BOBO, natives 1st, then introduce what can be managed to coincide.


ďNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the TitanicĒ

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The first 5 day's after the weekend, are the hardest....

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Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: txtrophy85] #7052649
01/25/18 06:10 PM
01/25/18 06:10 PM
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I have different feelings depending on the animal/situation.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7052850
01/25/18 08:58 PM
01/25/18 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
I have different feelings depending on the animal/situation.


Pheasant/chukar is a good example?

Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: txtrophy85] #7052857
01/25/18 09:04 PM
01/25/18 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: txtrophy85
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
I have different feelings depending on the animal/situation.


Pheasant/chukar is a good example?


Taste great, I grew up with it basically being our chicken. But pheasants look to be one of the biggest reasons the lessor and greater prairie chickens struggle.

No big deal until they get ES protections and guys like me that have agricultural activities in traditional PC habitat/range be screwed...

It can get complicated introducing non native

Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: txtrophy85] #7052871
01/25/18 09:16 PM
01/25/18 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: txtrophy85
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
I have different feelings depending on the animal/situation.


Pheasant/chukar is a good example?


Iím OK with them. Iíd rather have the prairie chickens back, but I donít think thatís happening. They are not as adaptable and too much native grasses/habitat loss.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Thursday Discussion topic (because I won't be around tomorrow) - Native but not Native Animal Introductioin [Re: txtrophy85] #7053235
01/26/18 02:38 AM
01/26/18 02:38 AM
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