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Mar 25th, 2012
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Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? #7050780
01/24/18 06:12 AM
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https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/01/23/p...ighorn-in-utah/

Interesting read. This guy established residency in Utah for the sole purpose of drawing a bighorn tag. Courts said it was illegal and found him guilty of poaching. Costly error on his part on many fronts. Your thoughts?



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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7050799
01/24/18 08:42 AM
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It seems that he did break the law, though they werenít real specific on just how. The jury was convinced pretty easily. The punishment seems a little steep, though. They donít mess around with bighorn tags.

Heíll just need a rent home in Hawaii, now.


Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7050822
01/24/18 11:44 AM
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Heís a good man and was my guide in AZ on my ram. He was above-board on this whole thing. Never tried to hide anything. Lived there the required time. Apparently, the law is you cannot move there just to draw the tag even if you meet the residency requirements. He never disputed the circumstances.

IMO harsh penalty for a good man who has done much for sheep hunting and conservation over the past 40+ years.

He is getting a lot of support from those that actually know him.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7050827
01/24/18 11:56 AM
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Yeah, theyíre treating him like a flat out poacher, and it seems pretty clear thatís not what he is. He could have murdered someone and got off with less.


Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7050831
01/24/18 12:08 PM
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I understand the issue, 21 points is a long time to wait but you can't do what you can't do. Lived in Colorado for many years trying to draw tags from coveted areas only to find out that they would give non residents tags at higher percentages which used to drive us crazy. Threatened to put in the draw as nonresident just to up our chances.


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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7050855
01/24/18 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Heís a good man and was my guide in AZ on my ram. He was above-board on this whole thing. Never tried to hide anything. Lived there the required time. Apparently, the law is you cannot move there just to draw the tag even if you meet the residency requirements. He never disputed the circumstances.

IMO harsh penalty for a good man who has done much for sheep hunting and conservation over the past 40+ years.

He is getting a lot of support from those that actually know him.


Is it routine to investigate what would appear to be legal sheep kills in this regard?


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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #7050864
01/24/18 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Heís a good man and was my guide in AZ on my ram. He was above-board on this whole thing. Never tried to hide anything. Lived there the required time. Apparently, the law is you cannot move there just to draw the tag even if you meet the residency requirements. He never disputed the circumstances.

IMO harsh penalty for a good man who has done much for sheep hunting and conservation over the past 40+ years.

He is getting a lot of support from those that actually know him.


Is it routine to investigate what would appear to be legal sheep kills in this regard?


IDK. I do know desert sheep tags are very high profile.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7050972
01/24/18 02:10 PM
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Maybe he should have read the law. At least he still has 3 states to hunt in before he is 79! hammer

It says he can still guide and being a sheep guide all over, he has probably killed everything in North America already.

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051047
01/24/18 03:06 PM
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He flat out broke the law, yes he poached it. He knew the residency laws and chose to take the shortcut. No way he guided all those years and didn't know the law.

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051057
01/24/18 03:11 PM
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I read on another forum that where he screwed up is after he drew the tag, but before he went on the hunt, he moved back to Arizona. He was walking a fine line claiming Utah as his primary residence and still living in Arizona most of the time to get the tag. Maybe if he had remained in Utah a little longer, he might have been OK?

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051076
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They must have something specific in the law that was not covered in the article, He met the threshold as far as residency it sounds. I wouldn't call it to the level of poaching, in my mind, that's a whole different level done under different circumstances. Most draw states also have concessions iirc for temp residence folks such as military, so their has to be additional written law i'd wager.

Some states also have residency requirements for many things, like working for the state police in Colorado, 12 months there and you can apply and get a job, wonder if they'd fire you if you moved just outside the Colorado line and continued to work your station..

Jury found him guilty, so just thinking there are more "details".


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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: EddieWalker] #7051079
01/24/18 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: EddieWalker
I read on another forum that where he screwed up is after he drew the tag, but before he went on the hunt, he moved back to Arizona. He was walking a fine line claiming Utah as his primary residence and still living in Arizona most of the time to get the tag. Maybe if he had remained in Utah a little longer, he might have been OK?


I was thinking the same thing. Had he lived in Utah until a few weeks after he killed the ram, would he still have been found guilty?

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051084
01/24/18 03:37 PM
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Sounds like he didnít think it through enough, should of bought a house, and stayed thier well past the hunt, or not applied the first year.

He made It obvious what he was doing.

Stupid law in my book, but thatís the law. Now he is a convicted poacher...... Iím suprised our normal poaching pitchforks peeps arenít hanging him...

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051107
01/24/18 03:52 PM
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Well you can't be a resident in 2 states, wonder if he had an Arizona hunting license for a resident the same year. If so he may face even more trouble.
No issues if he had established residency but like BoBo stated he knew exactly what he was doing.
Not sure why residency laws are stupid though.

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051110
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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: Wytex] #7051120
01/24/18 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: Wytex
Well you can't be a resident in 2 states, wonder if he had an Arizona hunting license for a resident the same year. If so he may face even more trouble.
No issues if he had established residency but like BoBo stated he knew exactly what he was doing.
Not sure why residency laws are stupid though.


Residency laws arenít stupid, you are either a resident or you arenít. If you fulfill the requirements you are a res. Having a separate clause for purpose of special Hunting is what is dumb, IMO

But none the less he could of easy beat it with a little more thought process. With 21 pts he was pretty much a 100% draw chance. Wouldnít of mattered if he sat out a year

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: Wytex] #7051217
01/24/18 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Western
They must have something specific in the law that was not covered in the article, He met the threshold as far as residency it sounds. I wouldn't call it to the level of poaching, in my mind, that's a whole different level done under different circumstances.


Originally Posted By: Sneaky
It seems that he did break the law, though they werenít real specific on just how.


Here you go. This is the law...
Quote:

(13)
(a) "Domicile" means the place:
(i) where an individual has a fixed permanent home and principal establishment;
(ii) to which the individual if absent, intends to return; and
(iii) in which the individual, and the individual's family voluntarily reside, not for a special or temporary purpose, but with the intention of making a permanent home.

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter13/23-13-S2.html

Originally Posted By: Sneaky
Yeah, theyíre treating him like a flat out poacher, and it seems pretty clear thatís not what he is.


They are treating him like a poacher because that is exactly what he is.

Originally Posted By: Western
I wouldn't call it to the level of poaching, in my mind, that's a whole different level done under different circumstances.


Had he just obtained the tag and not actually hunted, then he probably would have only been guilty of fraud and not actually of poaching. However, he went hunting and pulled the trigger on a bighorn. Because he did not have a valid tag (not valid as it was obtained illegally), he was poaching. He did not have permission to be hunting bighorn...which is poaching.


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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051233
01/24/18 04:55 PM
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Here is more explanation. Looks like he moved to Utah long enough to get a resident tag and moved out of Utah once he got it. Then he showed up later, when he was no longer a resident, shot the bighorn. No doubt it looks exactly what they are saying. He moved to Utah for the explicit purpose of obtaining a resident bighorn tag and as soon as he got the tag, vacated. He didn't even live in the state long enough to go hunting while still an actual resident of the state.

Quote:
ďIn August 2013, Altimus rented a house in Kanab, Utah. In March 2014, he used his Kanab address to apply for one of 10 desert bighorn sheep permits available to Utah residents that year,Ē the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (DWR) said in a statement. Altimus reportedly rented a house in Kanab, Utah, but moved out of the home shortly after receiving his hunting permit.

In Oct. of 2014, Altimus allegedly came back to Utah, ďwhere he killed a huge desert bighorn ram using his fraudulently obtained permit,Ē the DWR said. The poaching reportedly happened on the Zion hunting unit in southwestern Utah.

http://fox13now.com/2018/01/22/hunting-guide-allegedly-poached-bighorn-sheep-in-utah/

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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051349
01/24/18 06:10 PM
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I agree with Western I wouldnít consider it poaching, but a misinterpretation of the game laws.

The jury didnít see it that way.


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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #7051352
01/24/18 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
I agree with Western I wouldnít consider it poaching, but a misinterpretation of the game laws.

The jury didnít see it that way.


From what I understand, it wasn the jury that handed down the sentencing. They just found him guilty.


Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: EddieWalker] #7051379
01/24/18 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: EddieWalker
I read on another forum that where he screwed up is after he drew the tag, but before he went on the hunt, he moved back to Arizona. He was walking a fine line claiming Utah as his primary residence and still living in Arizona most of the time to get the tag. Maybe if he had remained in Utah a little longer, he might have been OK?


If he had stayed a resident from the time he drew the tag until after he killed the sheep, I donít think we would be discussing this.

It sounds like he moved back to Arizona after he drew the tag and before he actually hunted, which seems like a violation of the letter of the law and definitely the spirit of the law.

Not the same as poaching, in my mind, but not on the up and up either. Ultimately, Iím OK with him being labeled a poacher, but he at least tried to play the game, unlike people that trespass, hunt out of season or pull backstraps and leave the rest to rot, etc.


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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: Sneaky] #7051388
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Originally Posted By: Sneaky
Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
I agree with Western I wouldnít consider it poaching, but a misinterpretation of the game laws.

The jury didnít see it that way.


From what I understand, it wasn the jury that handed down the sentencing. They just found him guilty.


Colorado has a hunting board for say, that hands down hunt privileges restrictions/revokings. Think of it as a hunting peer jury. Bet itís same here

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051403
01/24/18 07:01 PM
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I think so long as the guy legitimately met the residence requirements it shouldn't matter why he moved to the state.

Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: Double Naught Spy] #7051420
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Although it definitely looks like it was planned, I wonder where in the Utah law it states you cannot rent a home, become a resident, apply for he tag and later move somewhere else?

Originally Posted By: Double Naught Spy
Here is more explanation. Looks like he moved to Utah long enough to get a resident tag and moved out of Utah once he got it. Then he showed up later, when he was no longer a resident, shot the bighorn. No doubt it looks exactly what they are saying. He moved to Utah for the explicit purpose of obtaining a resident bighorn tag and as soon as he got the tag, vacated. He didn't even live in the state long enough to go hunting while still an actual resident of the state.

Quote:
“In August 2013, Altimus rented a house in Kanab, Utah. In March 2014, he used his Kanab address to apply for one of 10 desert bighorn sheep permits available to Utah residents that year,” the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (DWR) said in a statement. Altimus reportedly rented a house in Kanab, Utah, but moved out of the home shortly after receiving his hunting permit.

In Oct. of 2014, Altimus allegedly came back to Utah, “where he killed a huge desert bighorn ram using his fraudulently obtained permit,” the DWR said. The poaching reportedly happened on the Zion hunting unit in southwestern Utah.

http://fox13now.com/2018/01/22/hunting-guide-allegedly-poached-bighorn-sheep-in-utah/


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Re: Poached Bighorn? Or just playing the system? [Re: dkershen] #7051422
01/24/18 07:13 PM
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Says in the last paragraph, taken from his own biography, that he has been sheep hunting every year since 1969. How does a guy do that?

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46243476&ni...g-bighorn-sheep

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