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1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) #7040926
01/17/18 01:14 AM
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Shot some 168 Amax at 950 this weekend with mixed results. Load was Federal brass, CCI large rifle primers and 45 grains of Win 748. This load produced groups between .400 and .650 at 100 yards. Conditions while we shot we're lite to moderate winds blowing left to right with temps in the 40s. We had solid rest/support under the front and rear of the rifle. Rifle is a Remington 700 varmint, with Timney trigger and B&C Varmint/Tactical stock wearing a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50. Target was 12x20".

Can the 168 be stable and consistent at 950-1000? If so, should I try to push the round faster to produce a more consistent performance at this range? If the 168 is a dog at these ranges, what if any bullet will work well in a 1:12 twist? I did have one keyhole strike on the plate, but the rest appeared to stay super sonic. I appreciate and feedback you guys can provide.

Last edited by bigjoe8565; 01/17/18 02:04 AM.
Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7040968
01/17/18 01:30 AM
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What does mix results mean?

What velocity was the bullet?

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041023
01/17/18 02:08 AM
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Velocity was 2600. Mixed results would be defined as hitting the target 15% of the time and a number of very close misses. Maybe I should buy a bigger target. grin

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041025
01/17/18 02:10 AM
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168 gr A-Max, .30 cal, out of a .308 Win just doesn't have the BC to get to 1k. At least not in most of Texas. It has a G-1 of .475. Seen many a 168 SMK lose trace at 900+, while the 175 SMK kept going.

Two choices:

1. Try a 178 gr ELD-M, G-1 .547 (I think your twist will stabilize it, never tried it in that twist rate)

2. Try a 155 gr Sierra TMK, BC .519. You will stabilize it, and you will make some real MV with it. I'd lay a hundred that it works in your barrel. You increased BC as well as MV.

MV gets you off the starting line, BC gets you to the finish line.



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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: FiremanJG] #7041029
01/17/18 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG

2. Try a 155 gr Sierra TMK, BC .519. You will stabilize it, and you will make some real MV with it. I'd lay a hundred that it works in your barrel. You increased BC as well as MV.

MV gets you off the starting line, BC gets you to the finish line.


Did you find the stated BC accurate in your testing? It has a fantastic BC for 155s.


Scott
Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041038
01/17/18 02:20 AM
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It's been correct out to 800 yards. They sprinkled pixie dust on that light of a .30 cal bullet to get that BC.

It's been hell on coyotes and hogs, too.



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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041124
01/17/18 02:59 AM
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is your ammo hand loads or factory?

what is the velocity variation on your ammo? ES or STD?

As FJ said you are pushing the limits of the bullet at that distance so small variation in velocity can cause you to go transonic at different points

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041162
01/17/18 03:30 AM
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They're hand loads with no more than .1 or .2 grains variation. Since Win 748 meters exceptionally well I used my RCBS Uni Flow Powder measure and weighed every fifth round.

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041173
01/17/18 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: bigjoe8565
weighed every fifth round.


1000 yard .308 Win needs all the help it can get. Good brass, good brass prep, good primers, BC, and weighing EVERY charge that goes in every piece of brass.

I don't know the temp stability of that powder. Hand me that rifle and brass, and I will load it with H-Varget. It doesn't meter well, but it shoots very consistent when weighing every charge.



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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041174
01/17/18 03:41 AM
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If you're going unstable before 950, you need to do something different. I was trying to push a 75 grain 223 bullet as far as I could. Printed a 3" group at 500 yards and couldn't touch a 2 MOA plate at 700. Figure out how to get more MV or BC or preferably, both.

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: FiremanJG] #7041179
01/17/18 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: bigjoe8565
weighed every fifth round.


1000 yard .308 Win needs all the help it can get. Good brass, good brass prep, good primers, BC, and weighing EVERY charge that goes in every piece of brass.

I don't know the temp stability of that powder. Hand me that rifle and brass, and I will load it with H-Varget. It doesn't meter well, but it shoots very consistent when weighing every charge.


Good point. I'm going to try the 155s with Varget now that I finally found some.

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041190
01/17/18 04:08 AM
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I'd start at 45.0 gr and go up from there. I wouldn't be afraid of 47.0+ gr. Ease up in .3 gr increments, as usual.



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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041474
01/17/18 01:58 PM
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1000 yard .308 Win needs all the help it can get. Good brass, good brass prep, good primers, BC, and weighing EVERY charge that goes in every piece of brass.


Jason Hits it RIGHT HERE. I'll get yelled at but in my opinion, .308 is not your Huckleberry at 1000. This is ALLOT further than most think cuz we throw it around here like its 100 yards. 12 twist is tough, the "Palma" guys do it with a hot 155gr with a 30" barrel. If you had 1-10, the 190 VLD might get you there

Will your rifle shoot .5 group at 100yards? this helps too.


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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041544
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I used to shoot 308, 1:12" and other at 1,000 a fair bit.

From personal experience in a 1:12" -

175 Sierra Match King’s will make it reliably and are good quality.

185 Berger Juggernauts are a good choice, but can be hard to find.

155 Palma bullets by Sierra or Berger are good, but did not provide as good of results on paper as the 175 or 185’s.

Seat 0.010" off of contact with the lands.

The bearing surface lengths on Hornady Amaxes varied too much, up to 0.007”, to match the consistency of Sierra or Berger. Have not tried the ELD’s, so they may be more consistent now.

Varget with F210M's is the ticket.

Black Hills brass is what I mostly used, Lapua obviously is excellent.

Trimming and chamfering has to be perfect and consistent. A Giraud is worth the money.

The Wilson trimmer provides excellent results at a lower price, although is much slower.

Do initial load workups at 200 or 300 yards, 100 yards is wasting time other than setting a zero.

Check the load at 500 or 600 yards. It needs to be a solid sub-MOA load, not including the wind. Practice at 500 to learn how to correct for wind, which is the major factor at 1,000, is helpful.

Weigh every round, it matters. The charge can be thrown on a Chargemaster or from the mechanical thrower, but finish it on a beam or very good quality electronic scale.

Runout needs to be 0.003" for best results, less is even better.

Polish the inside of the necks with a copper cleaning brush chucked in a drill held in a vise.

Primer pockets need to be cut with a Sinclair uniformer.

Deburr the inside of the primer hole.

Seat primers with a good hand tool, such as the Sinclair.

The sizing die needs to be set up to set the shoulder back 0.0015" - 0.002" max.

Sorting brass by weight and neck turning never seemed to produce much difference, so I quit those steps.

As Buzz said, everything matters at 1,000.

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041654
01/17/18 03:31 PM
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I don't know, I have never shot 1000 yards so I'm just asking...

Jeff are you really saying you cant seat primers with a RCBS hand primer that will reach 1000 yards effectively?


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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041670
01/17/18 03:39 PM
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No, not saying that. The load will reach a 1,000 just fine regardless of primer seating tool used, but increasing consistency in the ammo quality yields tangible benefits if the goal really is to shoot at a 1,000 and reliably hit the point of aim. I sometimes use a Dillon 550 and it works fine, but the Sinclair or similar really improves the feel in seating the primer. The small details add up to real differences in reducing flyers and improving consistency.

Try some of Chad’s ammo as a control. Black Hills factory ammo can produce decent results for just occasionally giving it a go. Brian Litz’ ABM definitely can.

Despite manufacturers’ marketing statements, more is involved than just turning a knob.

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041717
01/17/18 04:08 PM
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You have 2 main problems with the 168 in a 308 at 1K yards.

1- Yes, the launch speed of 2600 fps is pretty slow for a lower BC bullet at that distance. My data shows you are entering transonic at 760 yards, and subsonic at 940 yards, under normal conditions. The transonic range is where things get squirrelly. You need several things to help you- higher speed, higher BC, and more weight (or a combination of these items)

2- The 168 A-max has the same boat tail angle of 13 degrees as the 168 Sierra Match King does. Both bullets are known for running out of gas once you reach the transonic to subsonic range, and begin to tumble. A 13 degree boat tail angle causes uneven turbulence behind the bullet and causes it to begin to yaw. The minute this happens, you lose control of the bullet.

Launching a heavier bullet slower with a higher BC will perform much better at 1000 yards for you. A 190 SMK would work well, even in a 1:12" twist. So, anything with a higher BC, heavier, pushed faster will help you. If you go 155 grain, you will want to push them as fast as possible. The 155's will certainly get to 1000, but the heavier bullets will outperform them in drop and wind drift.



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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041736
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Originally Posted By: bigjoe8565
Maybe I should buy a bigger target. grin


LOL! Nope! 45 grains of 748 is a medium load at 2600 fps, so there's certainly more room to get a hotter load with this slower burning powder for a 308. You should be able to get 2700 with that combo with a 22"+ barrel, no problem, with about 46-47 grains. And with a 26" barrel, you should easily be running North of 2700.

But for 1K yards, I'd switch bullets to something heavier with a higher BC, and your results would greatly improve.



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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041821
01/17/18 05:23 PM
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I run a 22 inch 308 with 168 gr SMK and 44.5gr Varget and get a MV of 2710. 900 groups good at 1000 groups become random. Like others have said if you want to go to 1k you have to change the bullet.

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: jeffbird] #7041854
01/17/18 05:43 PM
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Not picking at you Jeff.

I've learned carbon inside the case neck does help. And I hate, HATE I SAY, virgin brass. I love me some once fired, shoulder bumped .002", and trimmed though.

I don't uniform primer pockets, but I do debur flash holes on the brands that are not Lapua, and Nosler.

RCBS hand priming tool has been working great for tens of thousands of rounds.



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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7041961
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No offense taken at all. Discussing things with others with experience and results is always interesting to me, and hopefully produces ever better results too.

Uniforming the primer pockets helps reduces flyers with the older Black Hills brass, which was made by Winchester/Olin at the time. Their new brass is made by RUAG, which seems to be comparable to Lapua in quality. I do not cut the primer pockets on the Lapua brass.

Interesting you have best results with virgin brass. What brand do you use?

The RCBS hand tool will work fine. I used the seater on a single stage press for many years and it did fine. Used a RCBS hand tool for awhile, but quit after seeing a report of the primers in the tray detonating for some reason. Hard to figure out how that happened, but I'd just as soon avoid that. As mentioned, I still use the Dillon 550 primer seater sometimes, especially when there is a big backlog, but it cannot match the Sinclair for consistency.

Carbon in the neck - can be done with or without polishing the inside of the neck. Just as an experiment, try ten polished and ten not polished. Just asking as a controlled experiment, not a challenge. I am genuinely interested in seeing if there is a difference when you try it. Just a question of curiosity, nothing more.

If nothing else, the OP has to change bullets at a minimum.

Good talk. cheers

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: jeffbird] #7042001
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You understood the opposite of what I said. smile

I like once fired brass way better, than virgin. It tends to shoot more consistent, since it is -.002" headspaced to my chamber, and it tends to make more velocity, on the exact same powder charge as the virgin brass was loaded with.

Yes, OP needs a new bullet for .308 at 1k. wink



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Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: bigjoe8565] #7042019
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Lots of good info on this thread. Sorry to hijack, but there was some discussion I'm interested to hear Jeff & JG's thoughts on.

Regarding virgin vs once-fired brass, I just started load workup for my Tikka 6.5 CM and I'm getting much better groups (under .5") on my virgin brass and I'm struggling to get 1" with my once-fired. I used a standard full length die for the first round and a bushing die the 2nd time around. Both times I bumped the shoulder .001"-.002" and the loads that worked with my virgin brass produced pretty poor results with once-fired, and it didn't seem to matter whether I used the regular die or bushing die.

Oddly enough, the shoulder location on the factory ammo before firing versus after firing didn't move at all, which I assume means I have a really tight chamber. So when I'm resizing and bumping the shoulder back, I'm actually creating more headspace than I had with the factory ammo (the factory ammo also shot very well).

So I know this is blasphemy, but I'm now considering neck sizing only at least for one set of firings on the brass just because nothing else is producing decent results on the fired brass. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: FiremanJG] #7042043
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
You understood the opposite of what I said. smile

I like once fired brass way better, than virgin.


Phew! Now the Earth is rotating again! lol. roflmao

Yep, my mistake reading on a phone. hammer

Patriot,

reading and mulling it over, not ignoring you, unusual issue.

Re: 1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards) [Re: patriot07] #7042088
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Originally Posted By: patriot07
Lots of good info on this thread. Sorry to hijack, but there was some discussion I'm interested to hear Jeff & JG's thoughts on.

Regarding virgin vs once-fired brass, I just started load workup for my Tikka 6.5 CM and I'm getting much better groups (under .5") on my virgin brass and I'm struggling to get 1" with my once-fired. I used a standard full length die for the first round and a bushing die the 2nd time around. Both times I bumped the shoulder .001"-.002" and the loads that worked with my virgin brass produced pretty poor results with once-fired, and it didn't seem to matter whether I used the regular die or bushing die.

Oddly enough, the shoulder location on the factory ammo before firing versus after firing didn't move at all, which I assume means I have a really tight chamber. So when I'm resizing and bumping the shoulder back, I'm actually creating more headspace than I had with the factory ammo (the factory ammo also shot very well).

So I know this is blasphemy, but I'm now considering neck sizing only at least for one set of firings on the brass just because nothing else is producing decent results on the fired brass. But I'm open to other suggestions.


Tell you what I would do..

First, why use two dies? I use a FL bushing die all the time.

What I would do is, bump shoulders on your fired brass .002" trim, chamfer, debur (did you debur the flash hole?) And go below, and above your previous charge.

Also, have you shot virgin brass, and once fired on the same outing, and got these results? Or are the once fired bass all at once, many round count down the barrel?

I'm wondering if the barrel needs cleaning, depending on your answer.



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