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Mar 25th, 2012
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Jarheads new rifle - H&K #7034707
01/11/18 09:28 PM
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http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-heckler-koch-m27-the-marines-new-rifle-24019

Anyone have a civilian version of this rifle (The HK416)? Thoughts?



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7034800
01/11/18 10:54 PM
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“I could kit out every grunt in the Marine Corps with the coolest sh*t head-to-toe for $100 million,” Neller said. “And I intend to do that.”

Who cares about the gun, this guy ^^^^^^^^ sounds like someone I want on my side! Cool gun by the way.

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7034860
01/11/18 11:58 PM
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5.56mm bang



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: FiremanJG] #7034881
01/12/18 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
5.56mm bang


Not even a serious option to change right now for a rifleman/infantryman.

Logistics needs to supply all of them and they have to have compatibility with the NATO and allied forces.

5.56 is the universal option at this point.

For an infantryman, the number and weight of rounds is important.

100 rounds of 5.56 is about 2.7 pounds.

100 rounds of 7.62, the only other viable option, is 5.25 pounds.

So for the same amount of weight on the back, they can carry twice as many rounds of 5.56 as 7.62.

A sniper or designated marksman is a whole different issue than guys out on patrol needing to haul as much ammo as possible.

One other factor for the logistics guys, a bullet that uses half as much brass, lead, copper, and powder allows for production of twice as many rounds in a time of war when commodities and supplies may be stretched thin.

Soldiers win battles, logistics can lose a war.

Like Gen. Neller's thinking, nice rifle. up

Hope Leupold will build to the level of quality they are capable of.





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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7034931
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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: Theringworm] #7034946
01/12/18 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: Theringworm
“I could kit out every grunt in the Marine Corps with the coolest sh*t head-to-toe for $100 million,” Neller said. “And I intend to do that.”

Who cares about the gun, this guy ^^^^^^^^ sounds like someone I want on my side! Cool gun by the way.


GD right flag

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: jeffbird] #7034963
01/12/18 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
5.56mm bang


Not even a serious option to change right now for a rifleman/infantryman.

Logistics needs to supply all of them and they have to have compatibility with the NATO and allied forces.

5.56 is the universal option at this point.

For an infantryman, the number and weight of rounds is important.

100 rounds of 5.56 is about 2.7 pounds.

100 rounds of 7.62, the only other viable option, is 5.25 pounds.

So for the same amount of weight on the back, they can carry twice as many rounds of 5.56 as 7.62.

A sniper or designated marksman is a whole different issue than guys out on patrol needing to haul as much ammo as possible.

One other factor for the logistics guys, a bullet that uses half as much brass, lead, copper, and powder allows for production of twice as many rounds in a time of war when commodities and supplies may be stretched thin.

Soldiers win battles, logistics can lose a war.

Like Gen. Neller's thinking, nice rifle. up

Hope Leupold will build to the level of quality they are capable of.





If this isn't the time to switch over to the 6.5 Grendel, when is the time?

I've had customers that are combat veterans. Several have told me of the enemy "fanning" themselves when hit with a 5.56mm at 300+ yards. They don't go down, and stop fighting. Guess where those SOBs fight from? Go back in the annals of "American Rifleman" and look at the article "Taking back the half mile". The 5.56mm is not effective at 400+ yards. They revamped the designated marksman program and pulled M-14's out of storage. Test fired, and scoped the best ones.

Give those Marines, and soldiers 6.5 Grendels and see an improvement of the number of dead and wounded enemy.



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7034974
01/12/18 01:21 AM
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Plenty of souls have been snatched with 5.56

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: SR025] #7035020
01/12/18 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: SR025
Plenty of souls have been snatched with 5.56


Well of course.

And what I wrote above, is also true.



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7035045
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5.56 would be much more effective with bullets specifically designed to create as much damage as possible, not something that is yaw dependent.

Give them 77 grain bonded tip bullet with a high BC.


Scott
Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7035055
01/12/18 02:10 AM
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Not disagreeing with you about ballistics.

But, changing ammo for all of NATO and allied armies is a monumentally huge task. It can happen, but takes a lot of political buy-in and will be led by the Army. They are working on it. Seems like the new Commander-in-Chief is pretty good at kicking bureaucratic butts to get things moving. Would not be surprising to see a change on the horizon sooner rather than later, unless the swamp creatures drag him down.



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: jeffbird] #7035090
01/12/18 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
5.56mm bang


Not even a serious option to change right now for a rifleman/infantryman.

Logistics needs to supply all of them and they have to have compatibility with the NATO and allied forces.

5.56 is the universal option at this point.

For an infantryman, the number and weight of rounds is important.

100 rounds of 5.56 is about 2.7 pounds.

100 rounds of 7.62, the only other viable option, is 5.25 pounds.

So for the same amount of weight on the back, they can carry twice as many rounds of 5.56 as 7.62.

A sniper or designated marksman is a whole different issue than guys out on patrol needing to haul as much ammo as possible.

One other factor for the logistics guys, a bullet that uses half as much brass, lead, copper, and powder allows for production of twice as many rounds in a time of war when commodities and supplies may be stretched thin.

Soldiers win battles, logistics can lose a war.

Like Gen. Neller's thinking, nice rifle. up

Hope Leupold will build to the level of quality they are capable of.



I walked almost 2000 kilometers my last deployment on combat patrols and dismounted route clearance. The last thing I cared about with all that BS gear on was how much my ammo weighed. With all the SAPI plates, smoke grenades, GPS, combat groin protector/armor, weapon, IOTV body armor, ACH, mine detector, heavy azz packs on our backs to protect against RCIEDs, the list goes on. I wouldn’t have had an issue carrying a few extra pounds of ammo in something like 6.8 SPC. Hell my SAW gunner carried 600 rounds on every patrol in his pack. I’d sacrifice the light weight of 5.56 for something that would punch a little bigger hole.


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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: scottfromdallas] #7035137
01/12/18 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: scottfromdallas
5.56 would be much more effective with bullets specifically designed to create as much damage as possible, not something that is yaw dependent.

Give them 77 grain bonded tip bullet with a high BC.


Or with fast 55 grain or lighter bullets, like it was designed for.

And using it at 300 yards or less, like it was designed for.

The .223/M16/M4 is not a do-all, fits all platform. However, that’s what it is being forced to do.


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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: jeffbird] #7035157
01/12/18 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Not disagreeing with you about ballistics.

But, changing ammo for all of NATO and allied armies is a monumentally huge task. It can happen, but takes a lot of political buy-in and will be led by the Army. They are working on it. Seems like the new Commander-in-Chief is pretty good at kicking bureaucratic butts to get things moving. Would not be surprising to see a change on the horizon sooner rather than later, unless the swamp creatures drag him down.



These things are what frustrate those of us that are expected to see, assess, solve, and move to the next problem as efficiently, and correctly as humanly possible. I hate seeing things take years, that could take months, in the hands of do-ers that'll kick in the door amd sort some [censored] out.



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: SapperTitan] #7035159
01/12/18 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: SapperTitan
Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
5.56mm bang


Not even a serious option to change right now for a rifleman/infantryman.

Logistics needs to supply all of them and they have to have compatibility with the NATO and allied forces.

5.56 is the universal option at this point.

For an infantryman, the number and weight of rounds is important.

100 rounds of 5.56 is about 2.7 pounds.

100 rounds of 7.62, the only other viable option, is 5.25 pounds.

So for the same amount of weight on the back, they can carry twice as many rounds of 5.56 as 7.62.

A sniper or designated marksman is a whole different issue than guys out on patrol needing to haul as much ammo as possible.

One other factor for the logistics guys, a bullet that uses half as much brass, lead, copper, and powder allows for production of twice as many rounds in a time of war when commodities and supplies may be stretched thin.

Soldiers win battles, logistics can lose a war.

Like Gen. Neller's thinking, nice rifle. up

Hope Leupold will build to the level of quality they are capable of.



I walked almost 2000 kilometers my last deployment on combat patrols and dismounted route clearance. The last thing I cared about with all that BS gear on was how much my ammo weighed. With all the SAPI plates, smoke grenades, GPS, combat groin protector/armor, weapon, IOTV body armor, ACH, mine detector, heavy azz packs on our backs to protect against RCIEDs, the list goes on. I wouldn’t have had an issue carrying a few extra pounds of ammo in something like 6.8 SPC. Hell my SAW gunner carried 600 rounds on every patrol in his pack. I’d sacrifice the light weight of 5.56 for something that would punch a little bigger hole.


^^And there you have it.



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7035163
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Hague convention of 1907 restricts us to FMJ. The round was designed to wound, not kill. To wound is to use up valuable resources like medics, transports, dr, etc. Essentially costing someone a lot more money and resources than if we used SP, HP etc, that were designed to kill. Doubt we’ll ever see a shift from 5.56, the logistics of that would be a nightmare. Having said that, If it were up to me I’d go back to the old 30-06.

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: 68A] #7035627
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Why the M27 IAR is NOT the right rifle for the Marine Corps.......

Quote:
In brief, the M27 is a fine weapon that undoubtedly provides an improvement in capability versus existing USMC small arms. It is also, however, already a dated system representing a decade-old state of the art that has been surpassed by more refined commercial improvements to the AR-15 family, which includes the M4 Carbine and M16A4 Rifle. The M27 itself is also not the best host candidate for upgrade, since it is fundamentally hampered by its gas system design. Since the M27’s selection, off-the-shelf or otherwise non-developmental solutions have arisen which leverage both existing M4 and M16A4 receivers and the commercial market to provide potentially equal or greater capability at lower cost and weight. Implementing these improved solutions instead of a fleet-wide adoption of the M27 would also expand the number of avenues of procurement for the Marine Corps, speeding delivery of much needed upgraded weapons to Marines at the front. In short, an M4/M16A4 upgrade program would provide a more capable, lighter, and cheaper solution that is quicker and easier to procure, and which wouldn’t tie the Corps to any one company for its future rifle needs.


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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: FiremanJG] #7035688
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
If this isn't the time to switch over to the 6.5 Grendel, when is the time?


I'm not certain that 6.5 Grendel has the stellar reputation for reliably feeding in an AR platform like 556 does. Not that it's bad or anything, just saying it doesn't compare to the battle tested history of the incumbent. I couldn't even begin to understand what it's like to be a soldier, but still if I was up in the mountains of Afghanistan I'd damned sure think I'd be wanting some 6.5 bullets to fling at my adversaries.

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7035751
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If anything they should switch over the SR25 platform and use 7.62x51. Yea it is heavier than 5.56, but 7.62x51 is already a NATO round and has wayyyy more energy on target. The 16" SR25's only a bit heavier and longer than the 16" M4 rifles. To me its a no brainier, but what do I know.


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I dig the CHODE.

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7035761
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I would be truly surprised if they changed the rifle system out. Small arms kill so much fewer people compared to artillery, air planes, and mortars. The effectiveness of other intermediate cartridges aren't that much better to justify the billions in cost to transition, and the cost per kill would be higher still.

Honestly, I don't think they will change until they have a truly revolutionary jump in cartridges. Just my uneducated opinion.

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: FiremanJG] #7035971
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
5.56mm bang


Not even a serious option to change right now for a rifleman/infantryman.

Logistics needs to supply all of them and they have to have compatibility with the NATO and allied forces.

5.56 is the universal option at this point.

For an infantryman, the number and weight of rounds is important.

100 rounds of 5.56 is about 2.7 pounds.

100 rounds of 7.62, the only other viable option, is 5.25 pounds.

So for the same amount of weight on the back, they can carry twice as many rounds of 5.56 as 7.62.

A sniper or designated marksman is a whole different issue than guys out on patrol needing to haul as much ammo as possible.

One other factor for the logistics guys, a bullet that uses half as much brass, lead, copper, and powder allows for production of twice as many rounds in a time of war when commodities and supplies may be stretched thin.

Soldiers win battles, logistics can lose a war.

Like Gen. Neller's thinking, nice rifle. up

Hope Leupold will build to the level of quality they are capable of.





If this isn't the time to switch over to the 6.5 Grendel, when is the time?

I've had customers that are combat veterans. Several have told me of the enemy "fanning" themselves when hit with a 5.56mm at 300+ yards. They don't go down, and stop fighting. Guess where those SOBs fight from? Go back in the annals of "American Rifleman" and look at the article "Taking back the half mile". The 5.56mm is not effective at 400+ yards. They revamped the designated marksman program and pulled M-14's out of storage. Test fired, and scoped the best ones.

Give those Marines, and soldiers 6.5 Grendels and see an improvement of the number of dead and wounded enemy.


No you wouldn't. Your average infantry guy isn't taking calm calculated shots in a firefight. The only thing that would be accomplished is spraying more expensive ammo at the enemy. At best, we took half aimed shots.

Anything over a couple hundred meters should be dealt with by air or indirect fire. If you really have to give them more capability, issue MK262. I didn't like lugging any more weight than I had to in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7036002
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So with the same hit ratio, a larger heavier bullet isn't going to produce better termimal performance?



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7036026
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A .224 bullet does some grievous damage from what I've seen. I know a 7.62 will do even more, but it's still not worth the extra weight. Carrying more weight requires more water and food; it's not just an ammo weight difference.

You can hit a man size target at ease with 5.56 if you have good conditions. In battle, you're catching a target in your red dot/irons for an instant and taking them down.

Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: dkershen] #7036076
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Interesting article.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/6-5mm-grendel-the-round-the-military-ought-to-have/

I can't find what a loaded cartridge of 6.5 Grendel weighs. I'm curious.
What did you tote, ten 30 round mags of 5.56mm?



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Re: Jarheads new rifle - H&K [Re: FiremanJG] #7036116
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Interesting article.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/6-5mm-grendel-the-round-the-military-ought-to-have/

I can't find what a loaded cartridge of 6.5 Grendel weighs. I'm curious.
What did you tote, ten 30 round mags of 5.56mm?
basic combat load is 7 mags so 210 Rounds. I usually carried a few extra mags just in case.


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