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Mar 25th, 2012
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6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? #7018009
12/31/17 02:38 PM
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Now, i’m Not a LR shooter and don’t plan to start, but I do follow the discussions on the forum. So here’s the question. From what I think I understand, the best caliber is one of the 6.5’s, due to available BCs, recoil, etc. But now I read of folks going up to the 7mm cartridges or down to the 6mm cartridges. What has changed? Is it just the ongoing need for ‘something else’?

Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018014
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IMO is comes down to what the purpose of the rifle is going to be...

Steel/matches only? Steel with critters thrown in? If so, what?

Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018021
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“Best” depends on the intended use.

From a pure performance standard, higher ballistic coefficient and more velocity are “better,” but recoil and ability to hit the intended point of aim matter too.

7mm has the highest bc’s of the three, and the heavier weights, especially pushed by the bigger cases, provide more thump for hunting. For paper punching competition, less recoil is an advantage, so 6 and 6.5’s with 308’s case capacity are more tailored to the task.



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018031
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Well, what i’ve heard for a few years is that BC rules and that velocity can be compensated by turret adjustment. Wouldn’t that still support use of 6.5s?

Surely a fellow can get some high BC 7mm bullets, but now recoil has a higher impact (no pun intended).

I’m not arguing for anything. I just have an inquiring mind.

Edit: looks like jeffbird answered my second statement before I finished it.

Last edited by 603Country; 12/31/17 02:58 PM.
Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018066
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Originally Posted By: 603Country
Well, what i’ve heard for a few years is that BC rules and that velocity can be compensated by turret adjustment. Wouldn’t that still support use of 6.5s?


You have to remember, the higher the BC, the lower the wind drift.

"Muzzle Velocity gets you off the start line. Ballistic Coefficient gets you to the finish line" -Jason Garvey



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018071
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NRA defines long range as 600-1000 yards. Unofficially "extreme range" is beyond 1000 yards. It depends on what game a guy is playing. If his shots are 600 and less, a fast 6mm is going to be great, because it spent less time in the wind. If a guy is playing 600-1000 yards, and recoil is a big factor due to positional shooting a 6mm or 6.5mm might work better for him. If a guy is playing 600-1400 yards, and he does not care about recoil, well that is where the 7mm will shine.



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018093
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The 6 Dasher is the current Golden Boy of the PRS this caliber and other 6mm's are being used simply because of recoil. I'll keep using my 6.5x47 for club matches and hunting because I believe it and other 6.5 caliber cartridges are a great dual purpose match and hunting round. I would feel under gunned trying to take a 200+ lbs Mule deer with a 6 dasher .

Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: FiremanJG] #7018103
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: 603Country
Well, what i’ve heard for a few years is that BC rules and that velocity can be compensated by turret adjustment. Wouldn’t that still support use of 6.5s?


You have to remember, the higher the BC, the lower the wind drift.

"Muzzle Velocity gets you off the start line. Ballistic Coefficient gets you to the finish line" -Jason Garvey


Did u just quote yourself?!?!?

And the award for the most self absorbed member is.....
Drum roll....
FiremanJG

I am definitely not a "real" long range shooter,just a pretender. But as an observant engineer, I've actually concluded myself that
A. Everyo be is right when they say best then the ctieri for best really matters. And
B. It seems to me the best really depends on your approximate cartridge size. Because if raw bc and velocity is all that mattered then why not shoot a 6.5mm bullet with the world's highest bc out of a 50nbmg case? The logic of bc and velocity suggests it will out perform. But the realities start entering. Seems like there is a sweet spot for muzzle velocity and simplly going to a smaller bullet to get more velocity has its limits too.

Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: Cattleman] #7018112
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Last year at The Heatstroke Open, I shot a friend's 6 X 47 shooting 105's @ 3000 fps MV. I had some issues with my 6.5 Creedmoor ammo the day before. Inside 800 yards the 6mm was nice. Outside 800 yards, it got blown all over the place. One would splash, I would make the correction, and the bullet would go somewhere else. Of course, the 6's do better with 115's, but that day turned me off to 6mm shooting past 800 yards. When it comes to that, I would much rather have the BC, and the bullet weight of a 6.5mm or a 7mm. Recoil is a non-issue to me.



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: Korean Redneck] #7018114
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Originally Posted By: Korean Redneck
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: 603Country
Well, what i’ve heard for a few years is that BC rules and that velocity can be compensated by turret adjustment. Wouldn’t that still support use of 6.5s?


You have to remember, the higher the BC, the lower the wind drift.

"Muzzle Velocity gets you off the start line. Ballistic Coefficient gets you to the finish line" -Jason Garvey


Did u just quote yourself?!?!?

And the award for the most self absorbed member is.....
Drum roll....
FiremanJG

I am definitely not a "real" long range shooter,just a pretender. But as an observant engineer, I've actually concluded myself that
A. Everyo be is right when they say best then the ctieri for best really matters. And
B. It seems to me the best really depends on your approximate cartridge size. Because if raw bc and velocity is all that mattered then why not shoot a 6.5mm bullet with the world's highest bc out of a 50nbmg case? The logic of bc and velocity suggests it will out perform. But the realities start entering. Seems like there is a sweet spot for muzzle velocity and simplly going to a smaller bullet to get more velocity has its limits too.


Not self absorbed, you were supposed to laugh!



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: Korean Redneck] #7018118
12/31/17 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Korean Redneck
Seems like there is a sweet spot for muzzle velocity and simplly going to a smaller bullet to get more velocity has its limits too.


That's it.

I use the .308 Win as an example, very oftrn. The best performance I have got out of it is a 178 gr @ 2700 MV, on a 24" barrel. That's the leveling of BC and MV. Drop down in bullet weight, gain speed, lose BC. Increase BC, increase weight, lose speed. If we loaded the large BC 230 gr Berger Hybrid, we would lose so much velocity that it would hurt performance. In order to drive that large BC, heavy bullet properly, it will require more powder, such as a .300 Win Mag, .300 Norma Mag, 30 Nosler. Then, you've gained a significant amount of recoil. Depending on the goals, that might hurt what you are trying to do.

In my opinion, the non-Magnum short action cartridge that produces great velocity as well as bullet weight and BC is the 7mm-08 A.I. loaded with a 162 gr. I have one to hunt with now. I do not plan to compete with it, because I will lose brass, and nobody wants to lose A.I. brass.



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: FiremanJG] #7018139
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: Korean Redneck
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: 603Country
Well, what i’ve heard for a few years is that BC rules and that velocity can be compensated by turret adjustment. Wouldn’t that still support use of 6.5s?


You have to remember, the higher the BC, the lower the wind drift.

"Muzzle Velocity gets you off the start line. Ballistic Coefficient gets you to the finish line" -Jason Garvey


Did u just quote yourself?!?!?

And the award for the most self absorbed member is.....
Drum roll....
FiremanJG

I am definitely not a "real" long range shooter,just a pretender. But as an observant engineer, I've actually concluded myself that
A. Everyo be is right when they say best then the ctieri for best really matters. And
B. It seems to me the best really depends on your approximate cartridge size. Because if raw bc and velocity is all that mattered then why not shoot a 6.5mm bullet with the world's highest bc out of a 50nbmg case? The logic of bc and velocity suggests it will out perform. But the realities start entering. Seems like there is a sweet spot for muzzle velocity and simplly going to a smaller bullet to get more velocity has its limits too.


Not self absorbed, you were supposed to laugh!


Sometimes humor doesn't translate. I often try sarcasm and people thing I'm being serious.

On a serious note, everyone is getting azz whipped by people shoving 6.5s down their throats. People go out buy their first 6.5, become an expert and then proceed to constantly whip your azz with how great it is. Maybe people are moving more to 6mm and 7mm lately because many 6.5 are people so annoying. I own 2 6.5s that shoot 140 grain bullets at 2700 fps but I don't whip peoples azz with my superiority.


Scott
Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018157
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As has been said it comes down to your use of the round. There are sweet spots for each one, but does the sweet spot match up with your intended use?

I also think there is merit to the "something new" statement. Everyone has a 6.5 CM but I shoot a 6.75 TX Special and it is mo better.

Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018160
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Is the next new shiny object gonna be a 7mm PRC ???

Seems like more than a few guys are AI'ing 7-08's to get some more horsepower....no interest in a 280 sized round anywhere I've seen & the 284's rebated rim is apparently a potential problem for some folks....
7 WSM's & 7 RSAUMS' died with brass non existent and no interest anywhere to pay the Royalty's to make any, and the next stop mo bigger @ 7RMg's is old hat, better BC & heavier LR bullets notwithstanding.

New powders however, may make the venerable old 7x57 viable for a handloader in recent commercial actions, but the lack of strict Industry standards in chamber's and leade + the sheer numbers of ancient old '92 & '94 Mousers still in use could be a nitemare for a manufacturer's insurance will kill that idea in using the 7x57 case as a parent plus it takes a Long Action receiver...gonna be interesting to follow for sure.

My old M70 XTR is shooting cheap 140gr Privi's, I harvest brass from, at +/- moa's at deer killing distances out to 200 yards - as far as I'm gonna kill something anyway - so I am GTG so far and gonna sell the 7Rmg I picked up as being Not Necessary for my purposes....but will look for a 280 just cause it's be neat to drop one of the calibers on the bench down to just 2 in 6.5's & 7mm. The 270's I am most familiar with already handle that 280 job profile on critters admirably, with probably a lifetime at my usage rates of components on hand.
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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018161
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Scott: funny and I agree, I have 2 6.5 Creeds, but I'm a closet 7mm guy ever since I had my 7mm WSM, what a laser !!! Hummmmmm maybe I need another??????????????????????????????


"I ain't here for a long time, I'm here for a good time"
King George Strait


Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018175
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Yall have to admit, Hornady knocked it out of the park with the 6.5 Creedmoor. They had a set of goals, and it has more than met those goals. A guy can walk in a big gun store, buy a rifle, buy Hornady ammo, put a good base, rings, and scope on it. Go to a long range somewhere, and be hitting targets at 1000 yards in no time. There just isn't a long list of chamberings that a guy can do that with.

Then there are those of us that nerd out. Always looking at BC, MV, ft/lbs, ES, SD, and we roll our own, allowing us to make something do what we want it to do.

The sky is the limit. Murica!



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018215
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Fireman,

I agree. I just get tired of the scenario below.

Orignal poster- "I'm looking for a good load for my 7-08. I would like to use 162 AMAX. What do you recommend?"

About 5 postes in- "I recommend you sell your 7-08 and buy a 6.5 Creedmoor. You will thank me later."


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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: scottfromdallas] #7018221
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Originally Posted By: scottfromdallas
Fireman,

I agree. I just get tired of the scenario below.

Orignal poster- "I'm looking for a good load for my 7-08. I would like to use 162 AMAX. What do you recommend?"

About 5 postes in- "I recommend you sell your 7-08 and buy a 6.5 Creedmoor. You will thank me later."



Yup. Makes intelligent discussion nigh impossible at times. I'm all for the freedom to take little side trips within a thread for humor's sake or any other good reason...it can make for very interesting reading. But the "you're-doing-it-wrong-if-you're-not-doing-it-my-way" mentality and hard-sell agenda pushing are nothing but buzzkill.




I'm here to give and receive knowledge, not affirmation or adoration. If you don't like it, mierda dura. Intellectual honesty is not for fragile egos.
Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: FiremanJG] #7018222
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Yall have to admit, Hornady knocked it out of the park with the 6.5 Creedmoor. They had a set of goals, and it has more than met those goals. A guy can walk in a big gun store, buy a rifle, buy Hornady ammo, put a good base, rings, and scope on it. Go to a long range somewhere, and be hitting targets at 1000 yards in no time. There just isn't a long list of chamberings that a guy can do that with.

Then there are those of us that nerd out. Always looking at BC, MV, ft/lbs, ES, SD, and we roll our own, allowing us to make something do what we want it to do.

The sky is the limit. Murica!


Yep !!! marketing campaign champions, followed with the 6mm Creed, 6.5 PRC coming up , now the mini .22 PRS.


"I ain't here for a long time, I'm here for a good time"
King George Strait


Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: scottfromdallas] #7018237
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Originally Posted By: scottfromdallas
Fireman,

I agree. I just get tired of the scenario below.

Orignal poster- "I'm looking for a good load for my 7-08. I would like to use 162 AMAX. What do you recommend?"

About 5 postes in- "I recommend you sell your 7-08 and buy a 6.5 Creedmoor. You will thank me later."


Yeah, that's just stupid advice, especially if a guy is a hand loader.

7mm-08 is an outstanding cartridge. And in some ways (for the hand loader) better than the 6.5 Creedmoor.



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7018240
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I'm not talking about marketing, Buzz. I'm talking about real life performance on the range, and in the hunting fields.



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: FiremanJG] #7018409
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Yall have to admit, Hornady knocked it out of the park with the 6.5 Creedmoor. They had a set of goals, and it has more than met those goals. A guy can walk in a big gun store, buy a rifle, buy Hornady ammo, put a good base, rings, and scope on it. Go to a long range somewhere, and be hitting targets at 1000 yards in no time. There just isn't a long list of chamberings that a guy can do that with.

Then there are those of us that nerd out. Always looking at BC, MV, ft/lbs, ES, SD, and we roll our own, allowing us to make something do what we want it to do.

The sky is the limit. Murica!


agree 100%

Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: Buzzsaw] #7018444
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Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw
Yep !!! marketing campaign champions, followed with the 6mm Creed, 6.5 PRC coming up , now the mini .22 PRS.


Whoa... whoa... whoa there big fella, don't start disparaging the 6mm Creed! It is the bomb and the bestest caliber bar none. Don't be a hater just 'cause you don't have one. Get a Tikka and top it with a Vortex and it will outshine those expensive customs. banana You'll thank me later. up

BTW Buzz, are you shooting my Remmy 223 at JG's match again this year?


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I prefer to think of myself as a control enthusiast. wink
Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018507
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Hornady did convince people that their AMAX tips were melting so they could sell them the more expensive ELDM.



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Re: 6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range? [Re: 603Country] #7018548
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They do melt, but at something like 2950 fps MV and above.



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