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Mar 25th, 2012
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The cost of wolves #7003154
12/19/17 10:49 PM
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This article is ostensibly about the spread of jackals into Europe, but there's a section about wolves at the end that I found fascinating. I'll only point out that the economic cost of wolf reintroductions has been grossly underestimated by the "environmentalists". Remember when they put out that wolves mostly survived by eating mice?

Jackals Spread into France


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7003482
12/20/17 03:03 AM
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No eco terrorist bunny thumper ever under-estimated wolves.

In the US Yellowstone was a pure experiment on unglulate control. 17k elk to 4K in less then 10 years.
Lots of elk hunting tag allocation around the park closed or significantly cut.

They just had a two year study on frank churchís Wolf predation on elk burned and barred from being released to the public, because of what was going to be reveled.

This is about the stopping the NEED for hunting, and the SUSTAINABILITY.

Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7003497
12/20/17 03:12 AM
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Bobo, you saying the eco terrorists were for reintroduction as a means to end the need for human animal control (hunting)?

Never thought of that before, but then again, haven't much thought much about wolves in the past either....

Re: The cost of wolves [Re: Texas buckeye] #7003894
12/20/17 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Bobo, you saying the eco terrorists were for reintroduction as a means to end the need for human animal control (hunting)?

Never thought of that before, but then again, haven't much thought much about wolves in the past either....


We were the predator at the top of the chain........not now where wolves are protected.


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: Texas buckeye] #7009588
12/24/17 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Bobo, you saying the eco terrorists were for reintroduction as a means to end the need for human animal control (hunting)?

Never thought of that before, but then again, haven't much thought much about wolves in the past either....


Bobo, please post links to the sources for your assertions. Thanks in advance.

My family has ranched cattle in Texas, NM, OK, KS, and Louisiana since the 1800ís, and Iíve seen more attacks by feral dogs than any other canines. Aside from the occasional calf or cow in distress, attacks by wolves & coyotes were relatively uncommon though slightly more common on fawns in areas with high deer density though not any more than other apex predators occupying the same habitats.

The significant populations of game animals in remote sections of N. America where hunting is rare to non existent, where other species of apex predators occupy the same niche and compete for the same resources to feed and survive, how would wolves affect the ecological balance in those environs in a detrimental, statistically significant manner thatís different? Research has shown they donít, much less than other apex or opportunistic predators, or accidents, famine or environmental and ecological factors such as drought, disease, fires, flooding, severe cold, etc.

Those that suspect that the reintrodtion of wolves is an agenda promulgated by those whoís real goal is a veiled attempt to erode the rights of hunters should voice their concern in a manner thatís constructive and meaningful. Opinions voiced as fact is nothing more than a waste of time as is espousing misinformation as fact. And stating that the reintroduction of wolves in their native habitat may result in the gradual loss of hunting rights is a stretch. It didní

The real threat to hunters is the lack of a concerted grass roots effort to stand unified in one common voice for our rights as naturalist, hunters, and responsible stewards of the land. And itís as much our right to enjoy a legally protected right thatís just as deeply ingrained in our culture as faith, family, and being American. I may not agree with someoneís lifestyle or religious beliefs but I served our countryís military and was willing to give my life to safeguard their right to live as they choose. And itís a shame this country has become polarized and intolerant. And the dissemination of inflammatory, sensationalist news and misinformation by news media, and social media is just a few of the reasons.



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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7009909
12/24/17 04:33 PM
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I would expect noting less from a guy that wants pigeon hunting banned,

Suggesting that animal rights activists, havenít sued over the delisting and return to state managment is absurd. Please explain why animal right groups sued to have the frank church USFG study shredded? Infact please explain why tax payers footed the bill for having to defend millions in legal challages simply over delisting. The science was cut and dry.

Your ranch comment is irrelevant, NM cattle loss due to wolves is part of the Farm Bill. According to you NM didnít get mad because the feds hid cattle killing of a specific wolf because of its genetic diversity(oxymoron since there was in <15 left at one time). Thus resulting in NM suing over more wolf introductions. More then 210 cattle paid out deaths due to wolves in NM(wolves are only found in 4-5 counties). Again itís documented and part of the farm bill. Thatís the little Mexican wolf.Canadian wolf has a bigger appetite

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/...high-in-wyoming

Also did the introduction of wolves in Yellowstone (2million acres) not resulting in the elk population dropping from 17k+ to 4K?

Remote parts of N America where hunting is rare...wow, laughing my arse off is an understand statement. GreaterYellowstone eco system isnt that remote.


Again we can either manage unglutes via hunters and tags or via apex predators. If we want apex predators then they need to be managed to a point they donít significantly effect tags or hunter success.


Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7009983
12/24/17 05:34 PM
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The devastating effects of excessive wolf predation on elk and moose in western WY, ID and other western states is well-documented. With science. (Even without science the results on the ground speak for themselves.) No one but the most ardent tree-hugger with an agenda would even argue the point.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: The cost of wolves [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7010638
12/25/17 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
No eco terrorist bunny thumper ever under-estimated wolves.

In the US Yellowstone was a pure experiment on unglulate control. 17k elk to 4K in less then 10 years.
Lots of elk hunting tag allocation around the park closed or significantly cut

My .02 and worth more than youíve got inthe bank......:)



They just had a two year study on frank churchís Wolf predation on because of what was going to be reveled.

This is about the stopping the NEED for hunting, and the SUSTAINABILITY.



This is analogous to an audience observing gladiatorial games determining that early man couldnít have possibly survived to the modern age due to the prevalence of large, meat eating predators. Modern, relational prey/predator statistical analytics between the two afore mentioned species in an environment that has little in common with their prior evolutionary habitat was is as relevant as my left nut performing a duet with Lady Gagaís pancreas. And the dribble that passes for a lot of environmental and biological science is destined to the trasheap of history.

Hearing nonsense in the guise of science makes me want to go get an old fashioned cupping or bled

I hear .a mercury enema and snifter of laudanum works wonders as well.

Science is a profession of guess until you get it right. Conjecture is idi-farking-odic.


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7010697
12/25/17 05:20 AM
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Modern manís intervention into the predator/prey continuum has (just as in thousands of other cases) rendered prior reliance on analysis that does not take our influence into account-meaningless.

In other words, our influence is no longer a blip on the scale - our thumb has been firmly placed upon it and will remain there. Ignoring that fact is to ignore reality.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: The cost of wolves [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7010753
12/25/17 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Modern manís intervention into the predator/prey continuum has (just as in thousands of other cases) rendered prior reliance on analysis that does not take our influence into account-meaningless.

In other words, our influence is no longer a blip on the scale - our thumb has been firmly placed upon it and will remain there. Ignoring that fact is to ignore reality.


Our influence is a definitely a factor. But As a specie, we tend to [censored] more often than blip.

Name one blip thatís improved the world we live in, that weíve improved and thatís made the Eartg a better place to live?


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7010796
12/25/17 12:46 PM
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Aerangis clearly hates humans.

Go up to lake hugo and camp at Ratton landing. Get to talking to the old man with Arizona plates that runs the park. He was an actual rancher in wolf country. Not past generations in places where there once was wolves. I'd bet your greats killed plenty of wolves.

Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7010829
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Ive more shot felines & canines than i care to remember. That affected our bottom line but having oprated cow/calf to a 7000 fre range in Texas, putting cattle on rural pasture with a healthy population of carnivores should be a candidate for an aggresive effort to thea matter of effectively mannaging rick. aranched to losses was one of the Wild, feral, if an atempt is made by any animal to prey on our calves,


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7010852
12/25/17 01:50 PM
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Coyotes kill far more calves and fawns than any domestic or feral dogs could ever dream of. A rancher supporting predator rights over livestock isn't much of a rancher.


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7010891
12/25/17 02:31 PM
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Great thing about feral dogs and coyotes is...... You can shoot them as they stalk your herd. Wolf better have a calf in his mouth.

Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7010894
12/25/17 02:35 PM
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Wolves kill coyotes, but I kill everything. Man was wise to kill wolves. They killed and kill livestock and too much game and are dangerous. It's a mutated pesky coyote on roids. If it was in my yard I would not feel safe and it would be dead. I had a pet wolf. I hated it. It did not take a skoulding, just would run off. Would not listen to anything. Not a good idea. I got one for ya!! If it cant survive like the coyote and crow without man's help, let it die. That's man made evolution. I can promiss you the crow and yote aint goin anywhere and they have evolved to do so just like mankind.


Runnin'em down like a dog has always worked best for me.
Re: The cost of wolves [Re: aerangis] #7010963
12/25/17 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: aerangis
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
No eco terrorist bunny thumper ever under-estimated wolves.

In the US Yellowstone was a pure experiment on unglulate control. 17k elk to 4K in less then 10 years.
Lots of elk hunting tag allocation around the park closed or significantly cut




They just had a two year study on frank churchís Wolf predation on because of what was going to be reveled.

This is about the stopping the NEED for hunting, and the SUSTAINABILITY.



My .02 and worth more than youíve got inthe bank......:)


This is analogous to an audience observing gladiatorial games determining that early man couldnít have possibly survived to the modern age due to the prevalence of large, meat eating predators. Modern, relational prey/predator statistical analytics between the two afore mentioned species in an environment that has little in common with their prior evolutionary habitat was is as relevant as my left nut performing a duet with Lady Gagaís pancreas. And the dribble that passes for a lot of environmental and biological science is destined to the trasheap of history.

Hearing nonsense in the guise of science makes me want to go get an old fashioned cupping or bled

I hear .a mercury enema and snifter of laudanum works wonders as well.

Science is a profession of guess until you get it right. Conjecture is idi-farking-odic.


Aw how cute a wolfaboo. Your 2cents is worth more then I have in the bank?? Thatís some funny shiit. A wolf boo that needs to brag about his bank account.. it will be ok little guy. Learn to use quote button.

Again why did your people want the FC study shredded and not released to the public? Why spend millions of dollars to prevent state management after the relocated Canadian wolves reached their previous designated lower 48 recovered number status?

Re: The cost of wolves [Re: syncerus] #7011006
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I want apex predators as part of the ecosystem too.
But not at any price.
The Yellowstone goals (established by science) were met long ago - yet they kept moving the bar up and up and up. And look what happened.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: The cost of wolves [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7011014
12/25/17 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
I want apex predators as part of the ecosystem too.
But not at any price.
The Yellowstone goals (established by science) were met long ago - yet they kept moving the bar up and up and up. And look what happened.


Nailed it. We manage them, not the other way around

Re: The cost of wolves [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7011046
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What a lot of people fail to understand is that humans are just as natural as any other predator and our place in the ecosystems management is just as natural as well.

We are the natural apex predator. Not the wolf or any other predator. The world was designed for us to control our competitors. We are the only ones with the mental capabilities to manage populations and habitat. A few wolves and other predators are fine. But a shoot on sight protocol is certainly wise when dealing with animals with the predatory capabilities of wolves.

Relinquishing the apex predator spot to another specie would simply be foolish.


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: therancher] #7011051
12/25/17 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
What a lot of people fail to understand is that humans are just as natural as any other predator and our place in the ecosystems management is just as natural as well.

We are the natural apex predator. Not the wolf or any other predator. The world was designed for us to control our competitors. We are the only ones with the mental capabilities to manage populations and habitat. A few wolves and other predators are fine. But a shoot on sight protocol is certainly wise when dealing with animals with the predatory capabilities of wolves.

Relinquishing the apex predator spot to another specie would simply be foolish.


I agree.

Obviously I don't have a wolf problem in Fannin county, but I do have a real coyote problem. I am as opportunistic on them, as thet are on prey.



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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7011053
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
I want apex predators as part of the ecosystem too.
But not at any price.
The Yellowstone goals (established by science) were met long ago - yet they kept moving the bar up and up and up. And look what happened.


Nailed it. We manage them, not the other way around


That's right.



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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7011062
12/25/17 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
I want apex predators as part of the ecosystem too.
But not at any price.
The Yellowstone goals (established by science) were met long ago - yet they kept moving the bar up and up and up. And look what happened.


Agree! I would love to see a wolf in the wild. I don't, however, want to see one every time I look out my back door. I feel the same way about coyotes, bobcats and fox.
I believe they have their place in the ecosystem. JMO

Re: The cost of wolves [Re: yotehater] #7011066
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Originally Posted By: yotehater
Coyotes kill far more calves and fawns than any domestic or feral dogs could ever dream of. A rancher supporting predator rights over livestock isn't much of a rancher.


Thatís a strong assertion, the assumption being your a subject matter expert, a licensed bovine actuary?


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: BOBO the Clown] #7011094
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: aerangis
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
No eco terrorist bunny thumper ever under-estimated wolves.

In the US Yellowstone was a pure experiment on unglulate control. 17k elk to 4K in less then 10 years.
Lots of elk hunting tag allocation around the park closed or significantly cut

They just had a two year study on frank churchís Wolf predation on because of what was going to be reveled.

This is about the stopping the NEED for hunting, and the SUSTAINABILITY.



My .02 and worth more than youíve got inthe bank......:)


This is analogous to an audience observing gladiatorial games determining that early man couldnít have possibly survived to the modern age due to the prevalence of large, meat eating predators. Modern, relational prey/predator statistical analytics between the two afore mentioned species in an environment that has little in common with their prior evolutionary habitat was is as relevant as my left nut performing a duet with Lady Gagaís pancreas. And the dribble that passes for a lot of environmental and biological science is destined to the trasheap of history.

Hearing nonsense in the guise of science makes me want to go get an old fashioned cupping or bled

I hear .a mercury enema and snifter of laudanum works wonders as well.

Science is a profession of guess until you get it right. Conjecture is idi-farking-odic.


[bAw how cute a wolfaboo. Your 2cents is worth more then I have in the bank?? Thatís some funny shiit. A wolf boo that needs to brag about his bank account.. it will be ok little guy. Learn to use quote button.

Again why did your people want the FC study shredded and not released to the public? Why spend millions of dollars to prevent state management after the relocated Canadian wolves reached their previous designated lower 48 recovered number status?


Proper use of the phrase QuoteĒ button is a prerequisite to taking the next class, ďUnderstanding Sarcasm and itís use :


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Re: The cost of wolves [Re: aerangis] #7011098
12/25/17 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: aerangis
Originally Posted By: yotehater
Coyotes kill far more calves and fawns than any domestic or feral dogs could ever dream of. A rancher supporting predator rights over livestock isn't much of a rancher.


Thatís a strong assertion, the assumption being your a subject matter expert, a licensed bovine actuary?


I know in my area I NEVER see stray dogs roaming. My nearest neighbor is a mile away. But I probably kill a coyote every week to every other week, and have continously for 4 years.



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