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Mar 25th, 2012
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“Accurate” - What is it? #6997969
12/15/17 09:48 PM
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There are endless posts talking about how accurate a rifle is, followed by a photo showing a nice group, which is nowhere near the bullseye/intended point of aim.

For hunting and tactical applications, small groups are helpful, but the ability to RELIABLY and CONSISTENTLY put the cold bore shot on a 1 MOA size target is my measure of accuracy. The bullet going where intended is the metric.

1/4 MOA groups that are nowhere near the bullseye are not “accurate” and do not equal an accurate rifle.

“Accuracy” requires four major components to work together:

1. rifle;

2. ammo;

3. scope including rings and base; and,

4. the shooter, which is always the most fallible component.

Other than a benchrest match, which I do not shoot, I always prefer a setup that can reliably hit 1 MOA targets with the cold bore shot over a 1/4 group shooting setup than is prone to shifting and wandering around or hard for the shooter to reliably put on the target for whatever reason.

Just some random musings on a Friday afternoon from reading some other posts.


Professionally trained and certified pistol and license to carry instructor.
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6997972
12/15/17 09:50 PM
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I always thought people intentionally clicked the turrets a few off the bull when grouping shots just so they don't shoot out their point of aim.

Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6997976
12/15/17 09:52 PM
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Yes!!! When talking about accuracy, I always ask a customer what kind of accuracy are you looking for? Because the one looking for 1/2 moa at 100 is a different kind of shooter looking for 1/2 moa at 1000!

(Deep thoughts, by Jeff!)



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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998007
12/15/17 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: jeffbird
For hunting and tactical applications, small groups are helpful, but the ability to RELIABLY and CONSISTENTLY put the cold bore shot on a 1 MOA size target is my measure of accuracy.

“Accuracy” requires four major components to work together:

1. rifle;

2. ammo;

3. scope including rings and base; and,

4. the shooter, which is always the most fallible component.


I almost wrote that^^ verbatim a few days ago, after I answered a PM from a member. He told me the rifles he already has, and the scopes he has. I explained, he could use one of his rifles, and get a tuned handload for it, and a better optic for shooting tighter, as well as farther. It is a system with four parts working together.

Think of a square table, with four perpendicular legs. Cut off one of the legs, and the table falls over.

In his case, he already has rifles. I recommended he look at scope/ mount (leg two), ammo (leg three), and then I will help him with the shooting part (leg four).

And by the way, cold bore on 1 MOA is a fairly tall order, for anyone. I go for it, on my range, beyond 400 yards, quite often. I don't always hit it.



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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998064
12/15/17 10:39 PM
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The Greatest Enemy of knowledge is not ignorance,
it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998081
12/15/17 10:49 PM
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Depends on the usage. Like the OP stated, knowing where the cold bore shot is going to hit is far more important than a nice tight group for some people. Imagine being a police sniper, having to make that shot on a hostage taker and only having half his face available and just to the right is the hostages face. At 100 yards if you are 100% certain where your cold bore shot is going to hit, would you take that shot knowing the consequences?


Originally Posted By: bill oxner
Ever spit it out rather than swallow it?

Originally Posted By: pegasaurus
Enjoy it while you can. One day you might be complaining about NOT getting random pop-ups in the morning. grin
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998111
12/15/17 11:14 PM
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i've always wondered how those tight groups are being shot from a bench, is the rifle rested in a cradle? i see a lot of them at the range. i'll use an arm rest but the my rifle forearm is still rested in my palm, just curious


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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: JTS] #6998123
12/15/17 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: JTS
I always thought people intentionally clicked the turrets a few off the bull when grouping shots just so they don't shoot out their point of aim.

Yep then zero after load development


Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998136
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i have a savage in 308 that only likes cold bore shots, the first 3 shots have been .75 to 1.25 at 100yrds, the next 3 are 3-4 inches off and by the 6th shot, the barrel is smoking hot and when i get 7 to 9 shots, the barrel is actually smoking, normal? none of my other rifles do this


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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998154
12/16/17 12:01 AM
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Jeffbird, what you describe seeing is actually not a display of ACCURACY (though that is how people frequently describe it) but rather it is a display of PRECISION. These are two very different terms. First lets define the term PRECISION since that is what we often see and unfortunately is used inappropriately when, as you have described, someone shares a photo of a target with the bullseye being their aim point but their group is away from it but very tight.

PRECISION is defined as how close measurements are to each other. Here is a picture of a very precise group. Notice how small the measurements are from each bullet whole. However, they are not close to the intended aimpoint which is the bullseye.



ACCURACY is defined as how close measurements are to the true value. Take for instance this photo. The bullet wholes are all roughly close to the intended aiming point, the center of the target. This would be defined as accuracy.



An ACCURATE and PRECISE target would look like the following, where the PRECISION shows a tight group and the ACCURACY is shown by it being on top of the aim point, ie. the center of the bullseye. This is what, in my opinion one hopes to achieve and would accurately describe a target where one has center punched a tight group.



This discussion can go even further when you talk about REPEATABILITY (results from the same shooter and same rifle) and REPRODUCIBILITY (results from a different shooter and the same rifle).

Lots of good articles and websites describing all of this, which is where I pulled it from.

Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998163
12/16/17 12:11 AM
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Accuracy is hitting what you aim at on game. It doesn’t matter if you’re neck shooting a deer over a feeder or shooting a coyote running across the pasture. If you hit what you’re aiming at your accurate. If you’re rifle shoots small groups where you point it when sighting in you’ll be a lot more accurate on animals.

Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: Theringworm] #6998182
12/16/17 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: Theringworm
Jeffbird, what you describe seeing is actually not a display of ACCURACY (though that is how people frequently describe it) but rather it is a display of PRECISION. These are two very different terms. First lets define the term PRECISION since that is what we often see and unfortunately is used inappropriately when, as you have described, someone shares a photo of a target with the bullseye being their aim point but their group is away from it but very tight.

PRECISION is defined as how close measurements are to each other. Here is a picture of a very precise group. Notice how small the measurements are from each bullet whole. However, they are not close to the intended aimpoint which is the bullseye.



ACCURACY is defined as how close measurements are to the true value. Take for instance this photo. The bullet wholes are all roughly close to the intended aiming point, the center of the target. This would be defined as accuracy.



An ACCURATE and PRECISE target would look like the following, where the PRECISION shows a tight group and the ACCURACY is shown by it being on top of the aim point, ie. the center of the bullseye. This is what, in my opinion one hopes to achieve and would accurately describe a target where one has center punched a tight group.



This discussion can go even further when you talk about REPEATABILITY (results from the same shooter and same rifle) and REPRODUCIBILITY (results from a different shooter and the same rifle).

Lots of good articles and websites describing all of this, which is where I pulled it from.

up I see an engineer here that is familiar with GR&R studies. Spot on!


Originally Posted By: syncerus
I prefer to think of myself as a control enthusiast. wink
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: BigPig] #6998208
12/16/17 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: BigPig
Depends on the usage. Like the OP stated, knowing where the cold bore shot is going to hit is far more important than a nice tight group for some people. Imagine being a police sniper, having to make that shot on a hostage taker and only having half his face available and just to the right is the hostages face. At 100 yards if you are 100% certain where your cold bore shot is going to hit, would you take that shot knowing the consequences?


Don't bring that up. I've shot with lots of PD Snipers this year.



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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: spankyttx] #6998211
12/16/17 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: spankyttx
i have a savage in 308 that only likes cold bore shots, the first 3 shots have been .75 to 1.25 at 100yrds, the next 3 are 3-4 inches off and by the 6th shot, the barrel is smoking hot and when i get 7 to 9 shots, the barrel is actually smoking, normal? none of my other rifles do this


There is only one cold bore shot.

Your next three are due to barrel heating. Thicker the barrel, the more shots it takes to develop fliers.



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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: Big Fitz] #6998217
12/16/17 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: Big Fitz
I see an engineer here that is familiar with GR&R studies. Spot on!


He's a medical doctor, Tim.



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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: FiremanJG] #6998233
12/16/17 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: Big Fitz
I see an engineer here that is familiar with GR&R studies. Spot on!


He's a medical doctor, Tim.


I couldn’t hold water to an engineers mind. True intelligence in that field. I just try to learn as much as I can about hunting/shooting and have seen this presented in several long range classes I have taken. You guys are way smarter than me when it comes to shooting, ballistics, etc. I just try to pick up things here and there and share what I can.

Last edited by Theringworm; 12/16/17 01:49 AM.
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: FiremanJG] #6998236
12/16/17 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: BigPig
Depends on the usage. Like the OP stated, knowing where the cold bore shot is going to hit is far more important than a nice tight group for some people. Imagine being a police sniper, having to make that shot on a hostage taker and only having half his face available and just to the right is the hostages face. At 100 yards if you are 100% certain where your cold bore shot is going to hit, would you take that shot knowing the consequences?


Don't bring that up. I've shot with lots of PD Snipers this year.


Why? After all, that is the most important shot one could take


Originally Posted By: bill oxner
Ever spit it out rather than swallow it?

Originally Posted By: pegasaurus
Enjoy it while you can. One day you might be complaining about NOT getting random pop-ups in the morning. grin
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: FiremanJG] #6998248
12/16/17 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: Big Fitz
I see an engineer here that is familiar with GR&R studies. Spot on!


He's a medical doctor, Tim.


In that case, I got this rash and it burns when I pee...should I be concerned? rofl

Seriously, if a gun will shoot a tiny group...it is just a few clicks away from being on the dot and putting it there consistently takes practice and mechanics. At that point it ain't the gun...it's JG's 4th leg on the table.

If I'm at the gun range I'm typically tuning a rifle or shooting a match. One I care where they group and the other I could care less.


Originally Posted By: Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: BigPig] #6998263
12/16/17 01:46 AM
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I would venture that most peeps posting pics on this forum are probably doing so because they have a new rifle and/or are working up a new load, and that they have not zeroed for that load yet.

Can't remember the last post I read along the lines of:

Originally Posted By: Average THF Poster
Got old Betsy out of the safe and she fired exactly same as last year and with the next three round from the same box of ammo even!!! banana Here look at this...


Maybe I just skip those.

-ww


Originally Posted By: Robert A. Heinlein
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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: BigPig] #6998271
12/16/17 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: BigPig
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: BigPig
Depends on the usage. Like the OP stated, knowing where the cold bore shot is going to hit is far more important than a nice tight group for some people. Imagine being a police sniper, having to make that shot on a hostage taker and only having half his face available and just to the right is the hostages face. At 100 yards if you are 100% certain where your cold bore shot is going to hit, would you take that shot knowing the consequences?


Don't bring that up. I've shot with lots of PD Snipers this year.


Why? After all, that is the most important shot one could take


Text me, and I'll explain.



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Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: bphillips] #6998295
12/16/17 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: bphillips
Originally Posted By: JTS
I always thought people intentionally clicked the turrets a few off the bull when grouping shots just so they don't shoot out their point of aim.

Yep then zero after load development


X3


Originally Posted By: AmoCuernos
If you shoot a young deer because a neighbor will shoot it, you are that neighbor.
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998326
12/16/17 02:53 AM
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No accuracy here


Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998447
12/16/17 04:47 AM
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I think 1 MOA, cold bore, is a bit much to ask out of a hunting rifle (where cold bore shots count). How many hunters actually check humidity and temperature changes, and adjust, before taking a shot? I would guess very few.


Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998468
12/16/17 06:02 AM
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Precision does not equal accuracy.

Accuracy = hitting where you aim (the bullseye).
Precision = hitting the same spot over and over (tight groups).

Precision looks pretty, accuracy kills.

Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird] #6998599
12/16/17 02:23 PM
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Is it not just a simple task of adjusting the scope to turn precision into accuracy (for target purposes)?

I just shoot 3 to check precision and if I like it adjust scope to move group to my desired POI. I always just assumed the guys showing off their groups on a target obviously have the sense to move them to where they want them - never thought much about it honestly.

I do marvel at how guys can keep a rifle steady enough to know you have a 1/4” rifle vs. a 1/2” rifle. I sure can’t. I know some can/do (targets above prove it), but kinda have the feeling if the average guy shoots a 1/4” group it’s most likely something that is not repeatable and, thus, not really proof of a true 1/4” rifle.


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I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


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