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Mar 25th, 2012
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Sighting in rifles #6985524
12/06/17 08:00 PM
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chital_shikari Offline OP
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Quick question: a scope/rifle when zeroed stays zeroed regardless of who is behind the gun, right?

Like it would be a mistake to have a rifle zeroed to the owner and then adjust the scope because of a change of impact when shooters differ.
That impact change would be the shooters fault, not the rifle, meaning the rifle would still hit where the reticle lines up if the shooter does his/her part, regardless of who it is.

2 examples: (what not to do) I had a big impact change with my dad's rifle when I was practicing for Palo Duro Canyon; we changed the point of impact to match me. Thinking back on it, that was probably my crappy form that led to the impact change and we didn't really need to readjust.

(what to do) I zeroed a rifle that is solely as a loner rifle. Multiple different shooters have killed game with it without touching the scope. My dad's rifle is zeroed to him and has been loaned to friends, family, and new shooters and they have all done fine with it on both game and paper targets.

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985567
12/06/17 08:22 PM
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I believe, at under 200 yards the difference in people eyes shouldn't effect the placement. Now if your talking about 400 yards+, you may see a little movement.


Originally Posted By: Grizz
Wingshooting is like sex for me - I love doing it but I'm just not that good at it.
Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985597
12/06/17 08:42 PM
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Lots of variables shooter to shooter. My 6mm Rem was sighted in for me and when my wife shot it she would shoot 2inches left. Her bullet holes would still be touching just 2 inches left.


Originally Posted By: BMD
No doubt about the AR crap, just damn shame hunters don't have self control and knowledge


Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: ETXFIREMAN 1] #6985608
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Originally Posted By: ETXFIREMAN 1
Lots of variables shooter to shooter. My 6mm Rem was sighted in for me and when my wife shot it she would shoot 2inches left. Her bullet holes would still be touching just 2 inches left.


Amen. It differs in how one holds the rifle (canted, pressure on the grip, etc.). Like the other poster stated within 200 yards probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. When I sight a rifle in for someone, I like to then place them behind the gun, shot a group, and adjust for them.


You did what?
Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985642
12/06/17 09:24 PM
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I would think that parallax plays a big part here but also agree that shorter ranges will show only a small difference. P_102


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Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985644
12/06/17 09:24 PM
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I hear y'all.

What I'm trying to say is: if a rifle is sighted in and another shooter comes in and is shooting way off, then it's generally the shooter's fault not the rifle. This is all at 100yd or less.

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985650
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Way off then yes generally the shooter.

There position, hold and etc shouldn't account for much at that distance.

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985663
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I'm curious about just how much difference in inches that parallax could possibly make if everything else was equal? It seems like I've read somewhere that it makes very little difference, maybe only a small fraction of an inch, but I can't really remember for sure. If that is true, sighting in for one person should be real close for anyone else.

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985677
12/06/17 09:45 PM
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Shooter's fault? Don't know.

Caused by the difference in shooters? Yes

I had a rifle that would shoot 1-2 inches different depending on how you held it. If you didn't shoulder it hard, it would shoot where I had zero-ed it. If you put a good firm shoulder behind it, then it shot higher. Same group size as long as you held it consistently, but different POI.

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: patriot07] #6985707
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Originally Posted By: patriot07
Shooter's fault? Don't know.

Caused by the difference in shooters? Yes

I had a rifle that would shoot 1-2 inches different depending on how you held it. If you didn't shoulder it hard, it would shoot where I had zero-ed it. If you put a good firm shoulder behind it, then it shot higher. Same group size as long as you held it consistently, but different POI.


Very true and I think it's about impossible for the 2nd person to be taught to hold the rifle perfectly to replicate the first person.

So I think the question the OP is asking is should you change the sights for the 2nd person?

My answer is yes, IF the 2nd person is consistently shooting in the same place and they will be using the rifle for a decent period of time.


"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."
-- Confucius
Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985822
12/06/17 11:18 PM
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Can 2 shooters have a POI change- yes. It's going to be due to different positions and form, and shooter weight. Also, prone vs bench can have a POI shift.

But, if 2 shooters laying prone with good position and good trigger position, they should have the same POI. I have switched rifles with several shooters and both have shot the exact same POI. Short answer is yes, you have to "drive" the rifle correctly.



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Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: Texasteach] #6985873
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Originally Posted By: Texasteach
Originally Posted By: ETXFIREMAN 1
Lots of variables shooter to shooter. My 6mm Rem was sighted in for me and when my wife shot it she would shoot 2inches left. Her bullet holes would still be touching just 2 inches left.


Amen. It differs in how one holds the rifle (canted, pressure on the grip, etc.). Like the other poster stated within 200 yards probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. When I sight a rifle in for someone, I like to then place them behind the gun, shot a group, and adjust for them.


I've had guys shoulder one of my rifles and claim the crosshairs are tilted (canted). They have no idea the vast majority of shooters have a natural cant when shoulding a rifle. My rifles appear canted to them because the crosshairs were leveled true horizontal with the rifle during scope installation. The uninformed novice is likely to "sight level" the crosshairs without any reference to the position of the rifle relative to true horizontal. They often reference a horizontal line when looking through the scope while ignoring the position of the rifle, thinking they must be holding it true horizontal.

Disclaimer: Should you check your scope and rifle with a level, don't try to correct it at this point. Just wait until the season is over to avoid missing a nice deer.



Dan,

Spring, Texas
Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6985999
12/07/17 01:19 AM
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Thanks everybody!

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6986198
12/07/17 03:24 AM
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I've let my buddies shoot my rifles, and I have shot them as well. I'm not talking about 1 or 2, but probably 15 different rifles between 3 of us. They all shoot to the same POI for all of us, but all of the optics have a parallax adjustment. I would say P102 is onto something there.

Last edited by CharlieSierraDelta; 12/07/17 03:24 AM.

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: CharlieSierraDelta] #6986253
12/07/17 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: CharlieSierraDelta
I've let my buddies shoot my rifles, and I have shot them as well. I'm not talking about 1 or 2, but probably 15 different rifles between 3 of us. They all shoot to the same POI for all of us, but all of the optics have a parallax adjustment. I would say P102 is onto something there.
Do y'all mean the parallax adjustment on the side/front of the scope or the objective lens adjustment to focus eyes?

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6986265
12/07/17 03:56 AM
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I think you're confused. The lens you look into is the ocular. Conventional AO and "side focus" do the same thing.




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Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6986276
12/07/17 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: chital_shikari
Originally Posted By: CharlieSierraDelta
I've let my buddies shoot my rifles, and I have shot them as well. I'm not talking about 1 or 2, but probably 15 different rifles between 3 of us. They all shoot to the same POI for all of us, but all of the optics have a parallax adjustment. I would say P102 is onto something there.
Do y'all mean the parallax adjustment on the side/front of the scope or the objective lens adjustment to focus eyes?
Parallax:
Parallax is essentially an optical illusion. Parallax presents itself as the apparent movement of the reticle, in relation to the target, when your eye moves off center of the sight picture (exit pupil) or in more extreme cases it appears as an out of focus image. It indicates that the scope is either out of focus or more specifically the image of the target is not occurring on the same focal plane as the reticle. Maximum parallax occurs when your eye is at the very edge of the sight picture (exit pupil). Even when parallax is adjusted for a designated distance, there is an inadvertent error at other distances. Most brands of scopes that do not have a parallax adjustment are pre-set at the factory to be parallax free at or around 100 yards; rim fire and shotgun scopes are set at or around 50 yards. Most scopes of 11x or more have a parallax adjustment because parallax worsens at higher magnifications. Generally speaking parallax adjustment is not required for hunting situations and is primarily a feature used and desired by target shooters. A 4x hunting scope focused for 150 yards has a maximum error of only 8/10ths of an inch at 500 yards. At short distances, the parallax effect does not affect accuracy. Using the same 4x scope at 100 yards, the maximum error is less than 2/10ths of an inch. It is also good to remember that, as long you are sighting straight through the middle of the scope, or close to it, parallax will have virtually no effect on accuracy in a hunting situation.


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Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6986286
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Left hand side of scope if equipped. Some are on the objective. Most are fixed at either 60 or 100 yards.


Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6986379
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To take the ecplanation a bit further: when you focus the ocular, you focus it so that the reticle is at maximum clarity. When you use the scope the ocular is actually used to look at a three dimensional floating image inside the scope. The portions of the image of the target that are in the same focal plane as the reticle will be parallax-free. When you play with the parallax adjustment you are moving the three dimensional floating image to and fro to get the object of interest in the reticle's focal plane, thus eliminating parallax error.




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Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: CharlieSierraDelta] #6987874
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Originally Posted By: CharlieSierraDelta
Left hand side of scope if equipped. Some are on the objective. Most are fixed at either 60 or 100 yards.
I gotcha. Well, this wasn't being tampered with in the scenarios I presented. It has happened to my dad once, he shot a deer at 200yd when the scope was at 30yd parallax setting, missed it by a long shot, pun intended (if 200yd can be considered a long shot that is).

Thanks for all the information everyone.

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: RiverRider] #6987884
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
To take the ecplanation a bit further: when you focus the ocular, you focus it so that the reticle is at maximum clarity. When you use the scope the ocular is actually used to look at a three dimensional floating image inside the scope. The portions of the image of the target that are in the same focal plane as the reticle will be parallax-free. When you play with the parallax adjustment you are moving the three dimensional floating image to and fro to get the object of interest in the reticle's focal plane, thus eliminating parallax error.


+1 To add an example, it is like looking at a straw in a glass of water. Where the water meets the air, the straw looks like is shifted a bit so that the top image above the water is not aligned with the piece in the water. The adjustment brings the two together in a straight line.


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Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6987991
12/08/17 12:12 PM
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Usually caused by different scope pupil alignment relative to shooters hold and pupil scope alignment.


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Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6988184
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I've found that if you tweak the focus a bit on a non parallax adjustable scope, it will help a whole lot.

Focus the reticle tack sharp by pointing it at the sky and working focus. Then, let's assume you're shooting at a target 200 yds away. Get the image focused as sharp as you can get it, while maintaining the tack sharp focus of the reticle. Often times you can get both the reticle and target very sharp.

Re: Sighting in rifles [Re: chital_shikari] #6988444
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Thank you all!

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