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Mar 25th, 2012
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How does a lease institute game management rules? #6978655
12/01/17 02:43 PM
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I'm on a lease where the idea is to only shoot mature bucks which my understanding is at least 4.5 yrs and older. I believe there's potential to get 150" and better bucks on the lease and I'd like to see if we can get there but in order to do it I think everyone needs to be on the same page. Unfortunately this is where the breakdown is. We have three new guys this year that have hunted places that had no management guidelines and operated by the ole saying if it's brown it's down.

So far this year the below is what's been killed:
Basket 8 - don't know age
9pt - 2.5-3.5
9pt - 3.5
10pt - 3.5-4.5 - Beautiful buck with nice time length but not much on mass. Pencil 10 is how we identified him.
13pt - 3.5 We thought he had pretty nice potential. Not much time length. Scored 119.

We have very few bucks that are older than 3.5 because everyone is killing them and not letting them walk. I think when everyone got on things were explained and we're supposed to have discipline but when these guys see these bucks they simply can't/won't let them walk. I understand that some of these bucks are the best they've ever seen but if they keep killing them they will still be the best they've ever seen.

Thoughts?

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978676
12/01/17 02:54 PM
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You would either need good honest people that all wanted to participate or a lease contract.

How big a property how many hunters? Low fence 4 year old 150 inchers is probably not going to happen. Just saying don't set yourself up for disappointment, you need to have your expectations in line with what is practically achievable.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978766
12/01/17 03:57 PM
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depends on where you are hunting as far as how old things will get anyway. If you are bordered by a bunch of shooters, then any management you do is for the neighbors benefit and not yours.

However, it could be easy to write in some rules for age class and have jaw bones sent off for ageing and stuff. Instituting a management program could be as simple as saying no bucks shot under 4years old or the person must pay double their lease fee...something like that makes people really question their shots. Might make some people mad, but to say you are on a place that wants to shoot mature deer and then have all the bucks shot be 2-3yo, makes no sense.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978769
12/01/17 03:58 PM
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Who is the lease manager? IF it is not you then make sure he supports this management plan. Here is where it is going to get sticky- if you say the rule is to not shoot anything under 4.5 years old then you are going to have arguments over a buck killed where the lease member says he is 4.5 and the manager or whoever is to be the arbiter for age determination says it is 3.5. But the first thing is to meet with every lease member and provide all of them with a copy of the new lease rules showing the management plan and have everyone sign off that they have read and understood it. If you want, set a penalty for shooting one too young of either monetary or forfeiture of lease membership (or anything in between). Have this meeting as soon as the season is over so that anyone who isn't on board has time to find another lease and ya'll have time to fill openings.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978772
12/01/17 04:00 PM
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Redchevy has a point, it depends on how big the lease is on how realistic your management goal is to reach. Folks that think they can manage a few hundred acres if it is LF are kidding themselves.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Russ79] #6978780
12/01/17 04:06 PM
12/01/17 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: Deerhunter61
I'm on a lease where the idea is to only shoot mature bucks which my understanding is at least 4.5 yrs and older. I believe there's potential to get 150" and better bucks on the lease and I'd like to see if we can get there but in order to do it I think everyone needs to be on the same page. Unfortunately this is where the breakdown is. We have three new guys this year that have hunted places that had no management guidelines and operated by the ole saying if it's brown it's down.

So far this year the below is what's been killed:
Basket 8 - don't know age
9pt - 2.5-3.5
9pt - 3.5
10pt - 3.5-4.5 - Beautiful buck with nice time length but not much on mass. Pencil 10 is how we identified him.
13pt - 3.5 We thought he had pretty nice potential. Not much time length. Scored 119.

We have very few bucks that are older than 3.5 because everyone is killing them and not letting them walk. I think when everyone got on things were explained and we're supposed to have discipline but when these guys see these bucks they simply can't/won't let them walk. I understand that some of these bucks are the best they've ever seen but if they keep killing them they will still be the best they've ever seen.

Thoughts?



It sounds to me like y'all have some vague/not-in-stone guidelines and no lease manager/leader and no real enforcement.

Originally Posted By: Russ79
Who is the lease manager? IF it is not you then make sure he supports this management plan. Here is where it is going to get sticky- if you say the rule is to not shoot anything under 4.5 years old then you are going to have arguments over a buck killed where the lease member says he is 4.5 and the manager or whoever is to be the arbiter for age determination says it is 3.5. But the first thing is to meet with every lease member and provide all of them with a copy of the new lease rules showing the management plan and have everyone sign off that they have read and understood it. If you want, set a penalty for shooting one too young of either monetary or forfeiture of lease membership (or anything in between). Have this meeting as soon as the season is over so that anyone who isn't on board has time to find another lease and ya'll have time to fill openings.


This is good advice and the route I would take.




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Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Russ79] #6978793
12/01/17 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Russ79
Redchevy has a point, it depends on how big the lease is on how realistic your management goal is to reach. Folks that think they can manage a few hundred acres if it is LF are kidding themselves.


True. Its got to be a cooperative with your neighbors as well. Easier said than done but it can be done.


Sometimes it's hard being me! But somebody has to do it.
Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978802
12/01/17 04:15 PM
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I'm not a fan of a blanket 4 year old minimum, but it is the much easier rout. Its going to cut back on shooting and there really is no reason to keep them all to 4 years old, there are definitely deer that are inferior, average, and superior when compared to their peers and I see no reason to keep the inferior around any longer than it takes to label them as such, say a 2 year old 4pt, a no brow 6 point, a 3 year old 8 with no tines longer than 2.5 inches etc. Scratching your trigger finger on a cull will keep people more patient for the good ones.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978828
12/01/17 04:30 PM
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just because a place is low fence or just a few hundred acres doesnt mean you go w/ " if its brown its down philosophy" if you can't wait till the deer mature you are out. My rule is if you kill a "trophy" deer less than 5.5 years old or a deer thats not on the cull list, you loose you trophy the next year, basically you're on spike patrol. Our hunters know this prior to signing the lease so if the time comes for punishment, which it has, there is no belly aching.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: SingleShot85] #6978839
12/01/17 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: SingleShot85
just because a place is low fence or just a few hundred acres doesnt mean you go w/ " if its brown its down philosophy" if you can't wait till the deer mature you are out. My rule is if you kill a "trophy" deer less than 5.5 years old or a deer thats not on the cull list, you loose you trophy the next year, basically you're on spike patrol. Our hunters know this prior to signing the lease so if the time comes for punishment, which it has, there is no belly aching.


They would be much better served on doe patrol if trying to manage a place for trophy bucks...depends on the area for sure, but most of texas should shoot more doe than spikes.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978874
12/01/17 05:24 PM
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Deerhunter61, it has been my experience that a lot more hunters can talk about trophy management than can practice it. Regardless of the size of your lease you can't approach the neighbors before you get your own hunters in sync. Clear guidelines with clear repercussions and consistent adherence to the guidelines is where to start. If the new guys don't fit what your doing they need to go. Doesn't mean you don't like them, they just don't fit in. It sounds like the deer that were shot would have been trophys in 3 more years. It will take the replacement bucks in the womb seven years from now to possibly achieve trophy status. So they set you back 4 years. With that said, if the group is not going to do that and you want to hunt mature bucks you need to move on if the bucks are going to be killed before maturity. It takes a like minded group of hunters to consistently shoot mature low fence deer . Each lease is only as effective as their weakest trigger finger....more important than your "hit list" is a strictly adhered to "don't hit list".
Best of luck with your management endeavors


Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978910
12/01/17 05:54 PM
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Get it in writing have everyone sign then you will have a management plan

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978932
12/01/17 06:21 PM
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Easy to set it up, but hard to actually implement.

Make it simple and just set one harvest age. Forget culls or defining them. Pointless at that point itís a justification to use another buck tag.

Good luck.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Texas buckeye] #6978940
12/01/17 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: SingleShot85
just because a place is low fence or just a few hundred acres doesnt mean you go w/ " if its brown its down philosophy" if you can't wait till the deer mature you are out. My rule is if you kill a "trophy" deer less than 5.5 years old or a deer thats not on the cull list, you loose you trophy the next year, basically you're on spike patrol. Our hunters know this prior to signing the lease so if the time comes for punishment, which it has, there is no belly aching.


They would be much better served on doe patrol if trying to manage a place for trophy bucks...depends on the area for sure, but most of texas should shoot more doe than spikes.


Im not telling what to do, I'm answering his question of how do you enforce management on a lease, then gave him a specific example of what I do. I couldn't disagree more w your management advice but thats a separate topic but thanks anyway

Last edited by SingleShot85; 12/01/17 10:57 PM.
Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6978945
12/01/17 06:34 PM
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Remember one thing, there may be people on the property next door, that are there to enjoy the few hours they can and do mot give a flip about your or anyone else's management plan. They go to have a few weekends of relaxation away from their normal work bs and city life. Some people are not going to turn deer hunting into a second "job" just to get a trophy.


Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back.
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Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: BOBO the Clown] #6978980
12/01/17 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Easy to set it up, but hard to actually implement.

Make it simple and just set one harvest age. Forget culls or defining them. Pointless at that point itís a justification to use another buck tag.

Good luck.


Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: dogcatcher] #6978984
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Originally Posted By: dogcatcher
Remember one thing, there may be people on the property next door, that are there to enjoy the few hours they can and do mot give a flip about your or anyone else's management plan. They go to have a few weekends of relaxation away from their normal work bs and city life. Some people are not going to turn deer hunting into a second "job" just to get a trophy.


if you shoot them then they for sure aint gona get older

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6979070
12/01/17 08:10 PM
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1st thing is you have to have a manager or management committee. Someone has to enforce the rules.

If you're trying to get some age on them then I suggest a 1 buck limit for a year or 2. It would have to be a significant fine or break it your off type rule. Again, someone has to be willing to enforce it.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6979245
12/01/17 11:18 PM
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One big problem is actually identifying a true 4.5 or any age class. Several years ago 100 of the nation's best deer management biologist were given a test to age deer they had never seen before. 70 % failed the the test. Take it for what it's worth!!







Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: DLALLDER] #6979274
12/01/17 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: DLALLDER
One big problem is actually identifying a true 4.5 or any age class. Several years ago 100 of the nation's best deer management biologist were given a test to age deer they had never seen before. 70 % failed the the test. Take it for what it's worth!!


Biggest issue with management right there. Most people cannot age deer on the hoof accurately. Age restrictions aren't realistic IMO on most ranches and with most hunters. Look at all the age guesses on this forum when someone ask. Majority of the guesses say 4.5 on every deer unless it has a big body then it is 6.5.

To manage a place, everyone has to be on the same page (even if they are all wrong) and have the same goal in mind and agree on what it is going to take to reach that goal.

Punishment isn't the only way to do it IMO, education and discussions are. Otherwise, you are going to end up going through a lot of hunters and the infighting among everyone is going to escalate.

Also, as the deer get better and management gets stricter...people get more possessive and aggressive. It can change the dynamics of a lease if it is done with shear force. And the enforcer is usually the one that gets blamed for it all.

Good luck grin


Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6979334
12/02/17 12:35 AM
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I think penalties right off the back will just cause arguements. If there are new members I would use the first year ot two to really study jawbones and pictures and try to educate everyone and learn your deer.

If goal is 4 1/2+ you can bet there will be some good 3 1/2 year old deer taken.

Accuracy of aging on hoof is horrible even by so-called experts.

I would not penalize someone for shooting 1 3 1/2 year old deer.

Besides aging by teeth is only accurate to within +/- 1 year unless you are shipping off front teeth.

I think the best approach is to approach it from an educational angle. If it is obvious that some arent trying then i would consider penalties.

I made my son pass on an 11 pt 2nd weekend of season because I thought he was 3 1/2 and lease manager said we were only shooting 4 1/2+.

A month later everyone on lease says 11 pt and almost every other 8 pt outside the ears is a shooter.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: sprigsss] #6979543
12/02/17 04:56 AM
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Same on our lease. Just don't see it happening but luckily only one guy shoots any 10 or or spike. Rest of us watch and wait. We have had 3 150+ bucks taken by neighbors this year we had on camera so hopefully we will get one soon. There is no way most leases can support everyone shooting a buck every year. We are on little more than 1000 acres and if I owned it, no bucks would be shot for 2 or 3 years. But ain't going to happen for a lease.

Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6979599
12/02/17 11:54 AM
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as mentioned above the first step is who is in charge of the lease/management plan? Is the LO on board to back up the lease boss in making and implementing the plan/rules?

If the property is conducive to being managed (large enough, neighbors, etc.) then some sort of structure has to be implemented - otherwise you are whizzing into the wind IMO


You can't fix stupid
Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: Russ79] #6979613
12/02/17 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Russ79
Redchevy has a point, it depends on how big the lease is on how realistic your management goal is to reach. Folks that think they can manage a few hundred acres if it is LF are kidding themselves.
exactly, I have neighbors that don't shoot any under 4.5, others that shoot if its ar correct


hold on Newt, we got a runaway
Re: How does a lease institute game management rules? [Re: txshntr] #6979657
12/02/17 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: txshntr

Also, as the deer get better and management gets stricter...people get more possessive and aggressive. It can change the dynamics of a lease if it is done with shear force. And the enforcer is usually the one that gets blamed for it all.


Very wise words. I found one 150 ten on camera last week. No one else has interest in checking the cameras anymore. I was just happy that we're making progress and it's great to see a deer like that. There's already a "discussion" about what we should "do" about him, "leave him as a breeder buck", etc. rolleyes Hell, no one will probably see him. Just sucks the fun right out of it.

You also can't always separate the "manager's" real desire to make it better for everyone and perhaps his personal control issues and need to be respected as the "expert". Very dicey human relations to navigate through. (End of pop psychology session.)


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
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