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Mar 25th, 2012
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ladder test #6971343
11/24/17 07:18 PM
11/24/17 07:18 PM
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Stratford Texas
BassCat'99 Offline OP
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how many rounds do you load per powder charge when looking for a good load?


22 Creedmoor
Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6971347
11/24/17 07:34 PM
11/24/17 07:34 PM
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Wolfe City, TX
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One.

Short action: middle of punlished minimum is where I start. +.3 grain steps, up to published max. (If everything is looking sade, I may exceed published max.)

Long action, .4 gr incrememnts.

I've ladder tested with as few as 9 rounds fired before.



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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6971368
11/24/17 08:20 PM
11/24/17 08:20 PM
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I also normally start in middle of published data and load 3 to 5 rounds adding .3 to .5 grains per each step depending of course on powder capacity of the particular round I am working with.

Last edited by bar-d; 11/24/17 08:25 PM.

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Re: ladder test [Re: FiremanJG] #6971442
11/24/17 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
One.

Short action: middle of punlished minimum is where I start. +.3 grain steps, up to published max. (If everything is looking sade, I may exceed published max.)

Long action, .4 gr incrememnts.

I've ladder tested with as few as 9 rounds fired before.


^^^^ this


Originally Posted By: Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6971613
11/25/17 02:27 AM
11/25/17 02:27 AM
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How can you determine your rifles best load with one shot per powder charge?


22 Creedmoor
Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6971619
11/25/17 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: BassCat'99
How can you determine your rifles best load with one shot per powder charge?


Same point of aim at 500 yards. "The node" will group, often sub-MOA.



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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6971628
11/25/17 02:40 AM
11/25/17 02:40 AM
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on the steps I use the 10% rule of thumb for separation. If water capacity of the case is 50 gr I will use .5 steps, 40 .4, 30 .3gr or close to that seems to fins the load on a ladder test or at least get you close for fine tuning.

Fireman is right you can do it with 1 load each weight, Most of the time I will do 2 each and shoot 2 ladders and go from there. Shoot 300+ for your ladder yields the best results. Also try to pick a calm day or at least one with consistent wind.

Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6972016
11/25/17 04:29 PM
11/25/17 04:29 PM
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Question- say I have a factory rifle that has a wood stock with hunting scope.
1- how would you test this rifle at 500 yards?
2- what if this rifle has a bedding issue. How do you determine the right load with this method of load work up? I often get in factory rifles that have gun issues that do not allow it to shoot well even at 100 where the groups are open or string, due to bedding issue.

Without shooting for groups at 100, how could you determine a load with a ladder method?

I ask this for realistic info for common hunting rifles I get in. Thx!

Last edited by ChadTRG42; 11/25/17 04:31 PM.


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Re: ladder test [Re: ChadTRG42] #6972026
11/25/17 04:37 PM
11/25/17 04:37 PM
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1. You're not. You're going to have to move one of your scopes over to the rifle.

2. My policy is to duplicate the lowest charge in the ladder for 20 rounds, on a brand new barrel. I will clean, and zero to that charge, shooting 3 or 5 shot groups, fouling the barrel, and when the zero is wondering, I will tweak as necessary. Right there, you would see the problems you mentioned. We shot 17 rounds through Kyle's 6.5 Creedmoor at 100 yards this week. Then, because it's a 6.5 Creedmoor, and we know what we know about it, we went to 3 shot groups at 200 yards.

Now, had it been a cartridge I did not know so well, I would have reserved 3-5 rounds for 500 yard steel just to make sure we would be on paper right next to the steel. Then ladder test it.

In the event of a barrel with some rounds down it, I would load about 6 rounds to zero, foul after cleaning, to get on steel at 500, and 1 would be part of the ladder test.



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Re: ladder test [Re: ChadTRG42] #6972179
11/25/17 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Question- say I have a factory rifle that has a wood stock with hunting scope.
1- how would you test this rifle at 500 yards?
2- what if this rifle has a bedding issue. How do you determine the right load with this method of load work up? I often get in factory rifles that have gun issues that do not allow it to shoot well even at 100 where the groups are open or string, due to bedding issue.

Without shooting for groups at 100, how could you determine a load with a ladder method?

I ask this for realistic info for common hunting rifles I get in. Thx!


If from experience, I knew a rifle had bedding issues, I would not attempt a 300 yard ladder with it. A ladder test in my opinion is a fast and reliable way to find an accuracy node in a solid shooting rifle.
Your initial time is better spent trying to understand what is keeping a poor performer from shooting well. You can't polish a turd.

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 11/25/17 09:16 PM.

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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6973069
11/26/17 10:50 PM
11/26/17 10:50 PM
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^^^ Yes. But how do you know it doesn't shoot well until you shoot it? My point is, the ladder method wouldn't work on most hunting rifles. I don't see how it can be used properly.



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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6973120
11/26/17 11:56 PM
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Why wouldn't it work?



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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6973228
11/27/17 01:38 AM
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If you had a hunting rifle that had bedding issues and not grouping well, you would not know this by shooting it at longer ranges. Plus, it would give you fits keeping it on paper.

I see a lot of rifles that won't group because of bedding issues or something. And there's a fair share that are a 2 shot rifle before they start throwing shots after they heat up. I just don't see how the ladder method would work on hunting rifles, or rifles that you couldn't verify that they shot well before a ladder method.



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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6973262
11/27/17 01:58 AM
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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6973311
11/27/17 02:31 AM
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3.

I don't mind loading more rounds, because enjoy reloading. I also don't think 1 round is enough. If it hits dead center; I could've been aiming off.

Re: ladder test [Re: ChadTRG42] #6973334
11/27/17 02:40 AM
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Chad, remember me talking about 100 yards first and foremost? The rifle has to be verified zero first. That will tell you if there's an issue. No matter what method one wants to use, I don't know anyone that would proceed with any method of load testing once they discovered a problem, after shooting it at 100 yards.



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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6973456
11/27/17 04:16 AM
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It will work on a hunting rifle...even one jacked up.

You get a zero with the lowest charge you shoot the ladder with...if it won't group, it won't group. A ladder test doesn't tell you anything more that where you should be looking at powder charges that are within a node.


Originally Posted By: Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6973591
11/27/17 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
^^^ Yes. But how do you know it doesn't shoot well until you shoot it? My point is, the ladder method wouldn't work on most hunting rifles. I don't see how it can be used properly.


You don't know till you shoot it. I just load for myself, and have the time to learn a rifles personality before I get started working up a load in earnest.(usually while fire forming brass) With customer guns your situation is probably different. I'm guessing you have a timeline. Preliminary groups to establish zero might or might not show you much, depending on whether or not a rifle likes the initial load. In your shoes I would probably just load three shot groups and shoot them at 100. I would start loading somewhere around 7% below the advertised max for the components to be loaded. If the initial groups inspired confidence, I would likely switch to a 1 shot ladder, to quickly pin down a node to work in. Incrementally I increase the load around 0.7%-0.8%. Depending on case capacity, sometimes as much as 1.3%. When it's practical, it can be a quick way to develop and tweak a robust 12 month load, with very few components. With the reputation you have earned, I'm certain you have settled on a method that works best for your situation.


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Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6975372
11/28/17 09:27 PM
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My way is as follows:

1. Reference three sources of data.
2. Choose a load, usually in the middle of data that matches the velocity I'd like
3. Load 3-5 cases at published COL in .5 increments to near max of data.
4. Go to the range and shoot the loads taking plenty of time to allow the barrel to cool between shots.
5. Record performance of the loads
6. choose the best performing load and load 5 rounds +/- .2 grains of best performing load.
7. shoot and record performance choosing the best performing load.
8. Experiment with seating depth.

Maybe not the best way, definitely not the worst, it works for me.


“A hunt based only on the trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” -Fred Bear
Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6977118
11/30/17 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: AmoCuernos
If you shoot a young deer because a neighbor will shoot it, you are that neighbor.
Re: ladder test [Re: Tye] #6977584
11/30/17 04:55 PM
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Excellent article


“A hunt based only on the trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” -Fred Bear
Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6979549
12/02/17 05:06 AM
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I had a brand new Horizon 6.5/284 built on a Tikka so I used the 10 round load development mentioned above this morning early.
I only fired 8 of the rounds as velocity got to the point I knew pressures were high although no real signs.
I shot all rounds on paper at 654 yards and chronographed on Labradar.
Shots 5,6,7 loaded 55.2/55.4/55.6 gr had ES of 4 and 1/4 verticle with the5th& 6th being the same verticle and less than inch apart horizontally.

Last edited by DStroud; 12/02/17 05:07 AM.

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Re: ladder test [Re: DStroud] #6979626
12/02/17 01:07 PM
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DStroud, thanks for sharing another successful ladder test.

It works!



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Re: ladder test [Re: FiremanJG] #6981648
12/04/17 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
DStroud, thanks for sharing another successful ladder test.

It works!


X2


Originally Posted By: AmoCuernos
If you shoot a young deer because a neighbor will shoot it, you are that neighbor.
Re: ladder test [Re: BassCat'99] #6983458
12/05/17 01:25 PM
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How do you determine ES with one shot?


One shot is all it should take.
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