Forums46
Topics537,030
Posts9,719,586
Members86,989
|
Most Online25,604 Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
Are short tines a cullable trait?
#6916124
10/11/17 01:45 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,719
cameron00
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
|
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,719 |
I don’t see this discussed a lot like some of the other poor qualities in bucks, but I believe short tines are relatively damning as far as a buck’s future potential. I think the reason they don’t get as much flack is because you can still have a really cool looking buck with a heavy or long main beam. But it won’t score much.
Thoughts?
I’m asking in the following context:
Have a buddy with about 900 acres and he needs help taking deer every year. For whatever reason, their buck:doe ratio skews towards bucks, and their age structure is young (haven’t had place long) so many times when you’re out there, you’ll see 5-10 young bucks and nothing else. It’s not an AR County.
If told that the goal is to take out the poorest young bucks, would you rather cull a wider deer with short tines, or a lower spread with long tines? Assume 3-yr-olds.
We were having the discussion because my buddy was frustrated because no one was shooting anything. No one was shooting anything because we were all seeing a ton of young bucks. I shot a young 8-pt that was decently good looking, but of the 5 I had that appeared the same age, he had the shortest tines.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916129
10/11/17 01:49 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,609
SapperTitan
Taking Requests
|
Taking Requests
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,609 |
depends on how short. Semi short with good mass throughout I like but id say the majority of short tine bucks are potential culls
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916140
10/11/17 01:54 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
|
Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Need to figure out what's available that's "old". If there's just a bunch of cruising yearlings out beyond their normal range, then I'm not sure what good would be done thinning them out.
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916159
10/11/17 02:04 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965 |
Culling is all in the eye of the beholder. As mentioned above there are so many criteria to consider when considering what a good cull deer is, that it really depends on your population as well as your taste for deer. Don’t expect culling to change anything as far as genetic expression in a lf native Texas population, and really in a HF operation culling is not going to make much difference unless New genetics are introduced. But it’s all in the eye of the beholder.
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916162
10/11/17 02:08 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,719
cameron00
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
|
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,719 |
There are too many deer overall.
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916168
10/11/17 02:11 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,719
cameron00
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
|
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,719 |
Put another way: does width or tine length have a bigger effect on score?
Forget the genetics effect and just assume the deer you don’t shoot get to live to be 7.
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916192
10/11/17 02:24 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965 |
IF there are too many young deer, I would focus more on shooting 2yo and older with less that 8 pts or 3yo and older with less than 10 Pts. Unless the property is MLD and you get a lot of tags to use, your culling efforts will simply remove mouths from the food chain. Won’t make any significant difference in antler expression other than just improving the food available for the remaining deer.
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916214
10/11/17 02:40 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 248
BooneDog
Woodsman
|
Woodsman
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 248 |
We have kind of the same dilemma going on, so I am following this one. On 6 game cams on 1200 acres we have not seen a 4+ yr Old buck at all. And the cams have been out since May. The guys bow hunting already are seeing 5-6 bucks a hunt and they are all young 8’s or smaller. This is the first year on this place in between Throckmorton and Seymour.
As far as your question on scoring main beam lengthy and time length contribute the most to score.
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916318
10/11/17 06:02 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,712
Txduckman
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,712 |
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks.
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916423
10/11/17 12:21 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,605
fouzman
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,605 |
Put another way: does width or tine length have a bigger effect on score?
Forget the genetics effect and just assume the deer you don’t shoot get to live to be 7. Tine length.
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916429
10/11/17 12:28 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 113
Pinky3169
Woodsman
|
Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 113 |
We typically take 2 year olds or older with 4 or 6 point racks, no brow tines. To start. Then we will move to 7pt racks and 8pt racks with super short brows.. Works for us.... Not for every one..
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6916506
10/11/17 01:21 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,481
redchevy
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,481 |
Native genetics have everything including the kitchen sink in them. We have some that are narrow and tall like you say and also wide and short. It seems to me the ones that are wide and short seem to be at least for us the deer that throw a lot of points.
It's hell eatin em live
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: Pinky3169]
#6916516
10/11/17 01:34 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 834
D Rogers
Tracker
|
Tracker
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 834 |
We typically take 2 year olds or older with 4 or 6 point racks, no brow tines. To start. Then we will move to 7pt racks and 8pt racks with super short brows.. Works for us.... Not for every one.. start at the bottom and work your way up. As for scoring, tine and beam length contribute the most. Pinky3169, where you at in Walker county?
~Dustin
"Life's complicated, man, like a dang ol' Rubik's cube, man. Talkin' 'bout blue and red, man. Dang ol' get one side, dang ol' messed up th' other side, man."
-Boomhauer
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: Txduckman]
#6916578
10/11/17 02:17 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 179
D'hanis
Woodsman
|
Woodsman
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 179 |
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks. Very good point
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: D'hanis]
#6917553
10/12/17 04:09 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,586
ckat
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,586 |
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks. Very good point THIS^^^ Most folks don't fully understand the effects of the drought. A group of biologist in our area (Rolling Plains) did an in-depth study on the fawn crops of the drought and reported the findings last year. The Kliff Notes version is: 2011 Fawn Crop (6.5 year olds this year) - Near 100% mortality rate 2012 Fawn Crop (5.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, but high post-birth mortality rate 2013 Fawn Crop (4.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, with higher than 2012 survival rate What does this mean? It is THE explanation for the significant "Age Gap" that we are seeing throughout the region. Lots of young bucks from 0.5-3.5 years old, a few 4.5 year olds, very few 5.5 year olds, and virtually no 6.5 year olds. Due to the tough conditions of 2011-2013, the number of bucks that are older than 6.5 is basically zero. The biologists also noted that barring no severe droughts, 2020 should be the "Magic" year where things are back to "normal."
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: ckat]
#6917772
10/12/17 01:23 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,481
redchevy
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,481 |
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks. Very good point THIS^^^ Most folks don't fully understand the effects of the drought. A group of biologist in our area (Rolling Plains) did an in-depth study on the fawn crops of the drought and reported the findings last year. The Kliff Notes version is: 2011 Fawn Crop (6.5 year olds this year) - Near 100% mortality rate 2012 Fawn Crop (5.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, but high post-birth mortality rate 2013 Fawn Crop (4.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, with higher than 2012 survival rate What does this mean? It is THE explanation for the significant "Age Gap" that we are seeing throughout the region. Lots of young bucks from 0.5-3.5 years old, a few 4.5 year olds, very few 5.5 year olds, and virtually no 6.5 year olds. Due to the tough conditions of 2011-2013, the number of bucks that are older than 6.5 is basically zero. The biologists also noted that barring no severe droughts, 2020 should be the "Magic" year where things are back to "normal." The drought wasn't as bad for all of us. Our place is in south texas. We didn't have fires and had water and protein available through the tuff times. We shot fat deer and saw no negligible change in recruitment and have no gaps in the age structure.
It's hell eatin em live
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: redchevy]
#6917797
10/12/17 01:43 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,273
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
|
kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,273 |
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks. Very good point THIS^^^ Most folks don't fully understand the effects of the drought. A group of biologist in our area (Rolling Plains) did an in-depth study on the fawn crops of the drought and reported the findings last year. The Kliff Notes version is: 2011 Fawn Crop (6.5 year olds this year) - Near 100% mortality rate 2012 Fawn Crop (5.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, but high post-birth mortality rate 2013 Fawn Crop (4.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, with higher than 2012 survival rate What does this mean? It is THE explanation for the significant "Age Gap" that we are seeing throughout the region. Lots of young bucks from 0.5-3.5 years old, a few 4.5 year olds, very few 5.5 year olds, and virtually no 6.5 year olds. Due to the tough conditions of 2011-2013, the number of bucks that are older than 6.5 is basically zero. The biologists also noted that barring no severe droughts, 2020 should be the "Magic" year where things are back to "normal." The drought wasn't as bad for all of us. Our place is in south texas. We didn't have fires and had water and protein available through the tuff times. We shot fat deer and saw no negligible change in recruitment and have no gaps in the age structure. Massive decline in Webb in both deer and predators... both are fully rebounded but the upper age class has been all but non existent
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6917810
10/12/17 01:52 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759 |
40 percent of a deers score is tine length so yes short tines are a undesirable trait.........
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6917816
10/12/17 01:56 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,481
redchevy
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,481 |
We are southern Duval County. We have always had a huge coyote population and we have observed no changes in it although we don't survey them like we do the deer. The quail did take it on the chin for a few years, but are back in full force.
It's hell eatin em live
|
|
|
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait?
[Re: cameron00]
#6918531
10/13/17 12:20 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,986
HornSlayer
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,986 |
Tine length over width is more important. Width will come with age. I haven't seen any kickers on short tinned deer myself.
They make ammo specifically for hunting for a reason!
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
|