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Mar 25th, 2012
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Are short tines a cullable trait? #6916124
10/11/17 01:45 AM
10/11/17 01:45 AM
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cameron00 Offline OP
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I donít see this discussed a lot like some of the other poor qualities in bucks, but I believe short tines are relatively damning as far as a buckís future potential. I think the reason they donít get as much flack is because you can still have a really cool looking buck with a heavy or long main beam. But it wonít score much.

Thoughts?

Iím asking in the following context:

Have a buddy with about 900 acres and he needs help taking deer every year. For whatever reason, their buck:doe ratio skews towards bucks, and their age structure is young (havenít had place long) so many times when youíre out there, youíll see 5-10 young bucks and nothing else. Itís not an AR County.

If told that the goal is to take out the poorest young bucks, would you rather cull a wider deer with short tines, or a lower spread with long tines? Assume 3-yr-olds.

We were having the discussion because my buddy was frustrated because no one was shooting anything. No one was shooting anything because we were all seeing a ton of young bucks. I shot a young 8-pt that was decently good looking, but of the 5 I had that appeared the same age, he had the shortest tines.

Thoughts?

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916129
10/11/17 01:49 AM
10/11/17 01:49 AM
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Killeen/Ft Hood, TX
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depends on how short. Semi short with good mass throughout I like but id say the majority of short tine bucks are potential culls


Originally Posted by bill oxner
I plowed mules.
Originally Posted by Roll-Tide
I did build a cabin. Aka the brokeback shack.

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Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916140
10/11/17 01:54 AM
10/11/17 01:54 AM
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Need to figure out what's available that's "old". If there's just a bunch of cruising yearlings out beyond their normal range, then I'm not sure what good would be done thinning them out.

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916159
10/11/17 02:04 AM
10/11/17 02:04 AM
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Culling is all in the eye of the beholder. As mentioned above there are so many criteria to consider when considering what a good cull deer is, that it really depends on your population as well as your taste for deer. Donít expect culling to change anything as far as genetic expression in a lf native Texas population, and really in a HF operation culling is not going to make much difference unless New genetics are introduced. But itís all in the eye of the beholder.

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916162
10/11/17 02:08 AM
10/11/17 02:08 AM
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cameron00 Offline OP
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There are too many deer overall.

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916168
10/11/17 02:11 AM
10/11/17 02:11 AM
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cameron00 Offline OP
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Put another way: does width or tine length have a bigger effect on score?

Forget the genetics effect and just assume the deer you donít shoot get to live to be 7.

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916192
10/11/17 02:24 AM
10/11/17 02:24 AM
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IF there are too many young deer, I would focus more on shooting 2yo and older with less that 8 pts or 3yo and older with less than 10 Pts. Unless the property is MLD and you get a lot of tags to use, your culling efforts will simply remove mouths from the food chain. Wonít make any significant difference in antler expression other than just improving the food available for the remaining deer.

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916214
10/11/17 02:40 AM
10/11/17 02:40 AM
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Argyle,TX
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We have kind of the same dilemma going on, so I am following this one. On 6 game cams on 1200 acres we have not seen a 4+ yr Old buck at all. And the cams have been out since May. The guys bow hunting already are seeing 5-6 bucks a hunt and they are all young 8ís or smaller. This is the first year on this place in between Throckmorton and Seymour.

As far as your question on scoring main beam lengthy and time length contribute the most to score.

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916318
10/11/17 06:02 AM
10/11/17 06:02 AM
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Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks.

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916423
10/11/17 12:21 PM
10/11/17 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: cameron00
Put another way: does width or tine length have a bigger effect on score?

Forget the genetics effect and just assume the deer you donít shoot get to live to be 7.


Tine length.

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916429
10/11/17 12:28 PM
10/11/17 12:28 PM
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Stephenville TX, & Walker Coun...
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We typically take 2 year olds or older with 4 or 6 point racks, no brow tines. To start. Then we will move to 7pt racks and 8pt racks with super short brows.. Works for us.... Not for every one..

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6916506
10/11/17 01:21 PM
10/11/17 01:21 PM
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Native genetics have everything including the kitchen sink in them. We have some that are narrow and tall like you say and also wide and short. It seems to me the ones that are wide and short seem to be at least for us the deer that throw a lot of points.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: Pinky3169] #6916516
10/11/17 01:34 PM
10/11/17 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pinky3169
We typically take 2 year olds or older with 4 or 6 point racks, no brow tines. To start. Then we will move to 7pt racks and 8pt racks with super short brows.. Works for us.... Not for every one..


up start at the bottom and work your way up.

As for scoring, tine and beam length contribute the most.

Pinky3169, where you at in Walker county?

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: Txduckman] #6916578
10/11/17 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Txduckman
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks.


Very good point

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: D'hanis] #6917553
10/12/17 04:09 AM
10/12/17 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: D'hanis
Originally Posted By: Txduckman
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks.


Very good point


THIS^^^ Most folks don't fully understand the effects of the drought. A group of biologist in our area (Rolling Plains) did an in-depth study on the fawn crops of the drought and reported the findings last year. The Kliff Notes version is:

2011 Fawn Crop (6.5 year olds this year) - Near 100% mortality rate

2012 Fawn Crop (5.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, but high post-birth mortality rate

2013 Fawn Crop (4.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, with higher than 2012 survival rate

What does this mean? It is THE explanation for the significant "Age Gap" that we are seeing throughout the region. Lots of young bucks from 0.5-3.5 years old, a few 4.5 year olds, very few 5.5 year olds, and virtually no 6.5 year olds. Due to the tough conditions of 2011-2013, the number of bucks that are older than 6.5 is basically zero. The biologists also noted that barring no severe droughts, 2020 should be the "Magic" year where things are back to "normal."

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: ckat] #6917772
10/12/17 01:23 PM
10/12/17 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: ckat
Originally Posted By: D'hanis
Originally Posted By: Txduckman
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks.


Very good point


THIS^^^ Most folks don't fully understand the effects of the drought. A group of biologist in our area (Rolling Plains) did an in-depth study on the fawn crops of the drought and reported the findings last year. The Kliff Notes version is:

2011 Fawn Crop (6.5 year olds this year) - Near 100% mortality rate

2012 Fawn Crop (5.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, but high post-birth mortality rate

2013 Fawn Crop (4.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, with higher than 2012 survival rate

What does this mean? It is THE explanation for the significant "Age Gap" that we are seeing throughout the region. Lots of young bucks from 0.5-3.5 years old, a few 4.5 year olds, very few 5.5 year olds, and virtually no 6.5 year olds. Due to the tough conditions of 2011-2013, the number of bucks that are older than 6.5 is basically zero. The biologists also noted that barring no severe droughts, 2020 should be the "Magic" year where things are back to "normal."


The drought wasn't as bad for all of us. Our place is in south texas. We didn't have fires and had water and protein available through the tuff times. We shot fat deer and saw no negligible change in recruitment and have no gaps in the age structure.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: redchevy] #6917797
10/12/17 01:43 PM
10/12/17 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Originally Posted By: ckat
Originally Posted By: D'hanis
Originally Posted By: Txduckman
Got to wonder if they is when the drought from 2012/2013 really starts showing up with a missing age class of bucks.


Very good point


THIS^^^ Most folks don't fully understand the effects of the drought. A group of biologist in our area (Rolling Plains) did an in-depth study on the fawn crops of the drought and reported the findings last year. The Kliff Notes version is:

2011 Fawn Crop (6.5 year olds this year) - Near 100% mortality rate

2012 Fawn Crop (5.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, but high post-birth mortality rate

2013 Fawn Crop (4.5 year olds this year) - Estimated 30% of normal birthing rate, with higher than 2012 survival rate

What does this mean? It is THE explanation for the significant "Age Gap" that we are seeing throughout the region. Lots of young bucks from 0.5-3.5 years old, a few 4.5 year olds, very few 5.5 year olds, and virtually no 6.5 year olds. Due to the tough conditions of 2011-2013, the number of bucks that are older than 6.5 is basically zero. The biologists also noted that barring no severe droughts, 2020 should be the "Magic" year where things are back to "normal."


The drought wasn't as bad for all of us. Our place is in south texas. We didn't have fires and had water and protein available through the tuff times. We shot fat deer and saw no negligible change in recruitment and have no gaps in the age structure.


Massive decline in Webb in both deer and predators... both are fully rebounded but the upper age class has been all but non existent

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6917810
10/12/17 01:52 PM
10/12/17 01:52 PM
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40 percent of a deers score is tine length so yes short tines are a undesirable trait.........

Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6917816
10/12/17 01:56 PM
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We are southern Duval County. We have always had a huge coyote population and we have observed no changes in it although we don't survey them like we do the deer. The quail did take it on the chin for a few years, but are back in full force.


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Re: Are short tines a cullable trait? [Re: cameron00] #6918531
10/13/17 12:20 AM
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Tine length over width is more important. Width will come with age. I haven't seen any kickers on short tinned deer myself.

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