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change of neck tension #6873744
08/30/17 05:23 PM
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Since a couple of my rifles shoots like a dream, before I SS tumbled, and have been using the vibratory tumbler and have seen some carbon on the inside of necks before I seated them. Now after SS tumbling, there is no carbon on inside of the necks at all, will it affect accuracy? Will it affect bullet tension? Wondering before I load 100 rounds for each rifle.

Last edited by TackDriver; 08/30/17 05:24 PM.
Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6873747
08/30/17 05:25 PM
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It could affect accuracy and it will effect tension. No hard and fast rule here...couple things you can do to help combat it....run an expander in the case or use bullet/neck dry lube.

Good luck.


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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6873755
08/30/17 05:36 PM
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Yes, you will see a major difference. The carbon build up helps act like a coating that allows the bullet to slide into the neck and create a consistent smooth surface. When you SS clean the brass, it removes the carbon and gets the brass back to bare brass. Add in the cleaning solution and the necks become more "sticky". The guys that I shot competitions with that were running SS media, had very high ES (extreme spreads) in their ammo. You would see vertical stringing issues at 800+ yards, simply due to the SS cleaning method. Most went back to walnut or corn cob because of this. But their brass was super clean! SS media has it's benefits, but it can also have it's draw backs. It's not for me.



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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6873795
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bang

Last edited by TackDriver; 08/30/17 06:12 PM.
Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6873861
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Shoot some and see!




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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6873905
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Originally Posted By: TackDriver
bang


Try it and see. You won't know until you try it. Try the neck lube for assistance. I have a white powdered mica I sometimes use for really firm necks.



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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874078
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I know, I reacted too soon. Going to make a 10 round sample first. Thanks popcorn

Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874167
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So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?

Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874187
08/31/17 12:29 AM
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The bare metal in neck (Brass) could be causing Galvanic corrosion with bullet (copper [dissimilar material] ) or Cold Weld as RR has discussed. Add in some of the corrosive acids used to make nitro powder. I Don't' know if any commercial ammo is loaded with something on bullet or neck to inhibit corrosion. But lot of military ammo has a black tar like substance at the neck / bullet juncture. This could be a sealer or corrosion inhibiter such as No Corrode ?

https://www.nace.org/Corrosion-Central/Corrosion-101/Galvanic-Corrosion/


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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: M16] #6874218
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Originally Posted By: M16
So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?



There is no way to actually measure neck tension.

You can measure the inside diameter of the neck, as prepped for seating, and find the difference between the ID and your bullet's diameter. This is often referred to as "neck tension," but it really is NOT neck tension...it's the just the difference between two linear measurements. It may or may not be useful, but realistically all you have is a linear difference. That does not take into account the current temper of the case neck (as in needing annealng or not, or somewhere in between), the thickness of the neck material, or the absence or presence of anything that might influence friction---such as the carbon deposits Chad brought up.

There IS a tool that will actually help you measure the force required to seat a bullet. I think it's made by Bald Eagle, but don't quote me. This might be the best most scientific way to try to quantify neck tension (too difficult to account for friction), but it still is not a bona fide tension measurement. It might just have to do, though.




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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: RiverRider] #6874237
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: M16
So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?



There is no way to actually measure neck tension.

You can measure the inside diameter of the neck, as prepped for seating, and find the difference between the ID and your bullet's diameter. This is often referred to as "neck tension," but it really is NOT neck tension...it's the just the difference between two linear measurements. It may or may not be useful, but realistically all you have is a linear difference. That does not take into account the current temper of the case neck (as in needing annealng or not, or somewhere in between), the thickness of the neck material, or the absence or presence of anything that might influence friction---such as the carbon deposits Chad brought up.

There IS a tool that will actually help you measure the force required to seat a bullet. I think it's made by Bald Eagle, but don't quote me. This might be the best most scientific way to try to quantify neck tension (too difficult to account for friction), but it still is not a bona fide tension measurement. It might just have to do, though.


RiverRider ain't wrong.

M16,

Do ammunition manufacturers produce ammo as high quality as expert hand loaders? Absolutely Not! Expert hand loaders sweat everything if they are searching for a certain level of precision. Judd, in Bench rest, sweats more than I do. I sweat more than the average hunter. It is a linear scale. I'm on one end of it, and have requirements, and due to my requirements I prefer second fired brass, with some carbon in the neck, and processed to my standards.

The end result is what I want it to be. Therefore I maintain my stance, that I really do not like virgin brass. In fact, I call it a great win, that I purchased 500 pieces of once fired 6.5 Creedmoor brass for $0.50 each, shipped. It's less money, and better brass than virgin brass. It has carbon inside it, and I can set head space for my chamber.



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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: FiremanJG] #6874270
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
[quote=RiverRider][quote=M16]
It has carbon inside it, and I can set head space for my chamber.


How do you do that if the chamber it was fired in is shorter than yours?

Re: change of bullet tension [Re: RiverRider] #6874274
08/31/17 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: M16
So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?



There is no way to actually measure neck tension.

You can measure the inside diameter of the neck, as prepped for seating, and find the difference between the ID and your bullet's diameter. This is often referred to as "neck tension," but it really is NOT neck tension...it's the just the difference between two linear measurements. It may or may not be useful, but realistically all you have is a linear difference. That does not take into account the current temper of the case neck (as in needing annealng or not, or somewhere in between), the thickness of the neck material, or the absence or presence of anything that might influence friction---such as the carbon deposits Chad brought up.

There IS a tool that will actually help you measure the force required to seat a bullet. I think it's made by Bald Eagle, but don't quote me. This might be the best most scientific way to try to quantify neck tension (too difficult to account for friction), but it still is not a bona fide tension measurement. It might just have to do, though.


That's my point. We hear all about neck tension but nobody has a way to measure it. So how do they know? They don't.

Re: change of bullet tension [Re: M16] #6874281
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Originally Posted By: M16
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
[quote=RiverRider][quote=M16]
It has carbon inside it, and I can set head space for my chamber.


How do you do that if the chamber it was fired in is shorter than yours?


I Can't if the chamber was shorter than mine. I'm still in better shape than virgin brass, which I guarantee has a shorter head space than my chamber. But my barrel was chambered with a "match reamer" that I purchased. Odds are greatly in my favor that I can head space it to my chamber.



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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874284
08/31/17 01:57 AM
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M16, I have done load developments with virgin brass, my mistake, and I have seen 3 shots in one hole and was doing cartwheels and resized those brass and used the same charges, next thing I was dumbfounded. They did NOT shoot the same, why? Volume of the brass plus carbon in the necks is what made it shoot different from bare brass that was never fired. So I had to redo my development with fired brass with carbon inside the necks until I found my loads. I do not clean all the carbon out of the necks, just a little swipe with a brush. Hope that clarifies things up for you. Reason I posted is that it popped up in my mind that I may have this issue and did not want to waste my efforts / time yet until I do a 10 shot sample with SS cleaned brass and see what results I get before loading up 100 rounds of my shoot lights out load that has carbon inside the necks. I have always used the vibratory tumbler which do not clean carbon off the inside of the necks, they only clean the outside. I just bought the SS tumbler last week.

Re: change of bullet tension [Re: M16] #6874287
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Originally Posted By: M16
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: M16
So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?



There is no way to actually measure neck tension.

You can measure the inside diameter of the neck, as prepped for seating, and find the difference between the ID and your bullet's diameter. This is often referred to as "neck tension," but it really is NOT neck tension...it's the just the difference between two linear measurements. It may or may not be useful, but realistically all you have is a linear difference. That does not take into account the current temper of the case neck (as in needing annealng or not, or somewhere in between), the thickness of the neck material, or the absence or presence of anything that might influence friction---such as the carbon deposits Chad brought up.

There IS a tool that will actually help you measure the force required to seat a bullet. I think it's made by Bald Eagle, but don't quote me. This might be the best most scientific way to try to quantify neck tension (too difficult to account for friction), but it still is not a bona fide tension measurement. It might just have to do, though.


That's my point. We hear all about neck tension but nobody has a way to measure it. So how do they know? They don't.



cheers




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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: M16] #6874288
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Originally Posted By: M16
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: M16
So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?



There is no way to actually measure neck tension.

You can measure the inside diameter of the neck, as prepped for seating, and find the difference between the ID and your bullet's diameter. This is often referred to as "neck tension," but it really is NOT neck tension...it's the just the difference between two linear measurements. It may or may not be useful, but realistically all you have is a linear difference. That does not take into account the current temper of the case neck (as in needing annealng or not, or somewhere in between), the thickness of the neck material, or the absence or presence of anything that might influence friction---such as the carbon deposits Chad brought up.

There IS a tool that will actually help you measure the force required to seat a bullet. I think it's made by Bald Eagle, but don't quote me. This might be the best most scientific way to try to quantify neck tension (too difficult to account for friction), but it still is not a bona fide tension measurement. It might just have to do, though.


That's my point. We hear all about neck tension but nobody has a way to measure it. So how do they know? They don't.


We can measure neck tension by "feel" when we seat bullets. It's why I figured it was time to buy an annealer after brass was fired 5X because some were soft seating than others. I don't need a tool to measure neck tension. Just the bump back measuring tools to bump shoulders. Caliper to select bushing size.


Last edited by TackDriver; 08/31/17 02:03 AM.
Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874308
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Originally Posted By: TackDriver


We can measure neck tension by "feel" when we seat bullets. It's why I figured it was time to buy an annealer after brass was fired 5X because some were soft seating than others. I don't need a tool to measure neck tension. Just the bump back measuring tools to bump shoulders. Caliper to select bushing size.



That's quite a talent that you have. Does every bullet you seat have the same tension? Is every bullet exactly the same diameter? Is every case mouth exactly the same?

I surprised nobody has come up with a way to measure neck tension. Seems like it would be easy enough. Maybe a machine with an inertia type bullet puller system. Count the whacks that it takes to release the bullet?

Re: change of bullet tension [Re: M16] #6874323
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Originally Posted By: M16
Originally Posted By: TackDriver


We can measure neck tension by "feel" when we seat bullets. It's why I figured it was time to buy an annealer after brass was fired 5X because some were soft seating than others. I don't need a tool to measure neck tension. Just the bump back measuring tools to bump shoulders. Caliper to select bushing size.



That's quite a talent that you have. Does every bullet you seat have the same tension? Is every bullet exactly the same diameter? Is every case mouth exactly the same?

I surprised nobody has come up with a way to measure neck tension. Seems like it would be easy enough. Maybe a machine with an inertia type bullet puller system. Count the whacks that it takes to release the bullet?


After I annealed, the seating felt a lot more consistent than before I annealed. I am not going to measure each bullet diameter or each case mouth, I only use Lapua and Norma brass which are one of the best brass out there. I just rather do what I know and what others do and load and shoot. I am happy when my guns shoot .2 to .3 MOA at 300 yards. If I have a question or some thing I am not sure about, I'll ask questions. I am not saying I am McGuyer or some guru but I have reloaded for 25 plus years and learn from my mistakes, I still read and do research and I am still learning from good guys on this forum and glad to have them here. Hats off to you all. cheers

Last edited by TackDriver; 08/31/17 02:29 AM.
Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874356
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Originally Posted By: TackDriver


After I annealed, the seating felt a lot more consistent than before I annealed. I am not going to measure each bullet diameter or each case mouth, I only use Lapua and Norma brass which are one of the best brass out there. I just rather do what I know and what others do and load and shoot. I am happy when my guns shoot .2 to .3 MOA at 300 yards. If I have a question or some thing I am not sure about, I'll ask questions. I am not saying I am McGuyer or some guru but I have reloaded for 25 plus years and learn from my mistakes, I still read and do research and I am still learning from good guys on this forum and glad to have them here. Hats off to you all. cheers


I hear you. I've been at it 40 years. The nice thing about reloading is that you will never figure it all out. I guess I'm at that stage where you wonder if doing some things are really necessary and some things are actually taking a step back. And I want proof that corncob tumbling is better accuracy wise than ss pins. I still do both. Only use the ss pins when the brass gets really dirty. I think you hit the nail on the head with the annealing.

Last edited by M16; 08/31/17 02:55 AM.
Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874372
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I've been reloading since '65, but that's why I'm on here a bunch. I learned something on this thread! cheers

Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874411
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There are different ways to measure neck tension...if you measure a piece of brass after a bullet is seated and you subtract from that measurement to size your brass you are creating neck tension. Don't believe me...lower it by .006 and watch the brass jacket peal back from the bullet. I'm not saying you have .006 of neck tension but I'm saying you have more neck tension than you do than if you use a neck diameter that is .001 less than the measurement. If you necks are straight and the circumference is consistent (neck turned) then it should be consistent pressure.

The other way is measure bullet seating force and that is either a 21st Century hydraulic arbor press or a K&M arbor press. I actually prefer the 21st Century...I have both and they are both consistent I just like the 21st Century a little better.


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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: Judd] #6874433
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Originally Posted By: Judd
There are different ways to measure neck tension...if you measure a piece of brass after a bullet is seated and you subtract from that measurement to size your brass you are creating neck tension. Don't believe me...lower it by .006 and watch the brass jacket peal back from the bullet. I'm not saying you have .006 of neck tension but I'm saying you have more neck tension than you do than if you use a neck diameter that is .001 less than the measurement. If you necks are straight and the circumference is consistent (neck turned) then it should be consistent pressure.


I cannot agree more. up

Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874491
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Being nitpicky...I would say you're still not measuring neck tension, you're measuring seating force. That's analogous to estimating pressure by measuring velocity, and that's not a completely invalid approach.




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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: RiverRider] #6874528
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Being nitpicky...I would say you're still not measuring neck tension, you're measuring seating force. That's analogous to estimating pressure by measuring velocity, and that's not a completely invalid approach.


Agreed. Tools are available to measure the force needed to seat a bullet. But to measure neck tension you would need to measure the force needed to move the bullet out of the cartridge case. I agree that being consistent would help in that respect. But not all bullets are exactly the same diameter. Each piece of brass is not exactly the same. And then you have variances in powders and primers. All have an effect. A nitpickingly minute small effect but an effect none the less. cheers

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