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to cull or not to cull? #6860066
08/18/17 12:37 AM
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For me this nails it - we have done this for years on our ranch and the results speak for themselves - total common sense



http://www.buckmanager.com/2009/08/26/deer-management-reasons-to-cull-whitetail-bucks/


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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860126
08/18/17 01:34 AM
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tlk, thanks for posting that! Same basic program I learned from one of the fathers of modern day deer management. A program that anyone can easily follow, and adjust as years go by and the herd takes shape. I don't like to name names, but I'm proud to say I learned more about habitat, whitetails and marksmanship from Bill Maltsberger, over 15 years of hunting together, than I could have in three lifetimes on my own.


Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860148
08/18/17 01:51 AM
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I think most of that is common sense but it's good info.


Originally Posted by bill oxner
I plowed mules.
Originally Posted by Roll-Tide
I did build a cabin. Aka the brokeback shack.

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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860153
08/18/17 01:54 AM
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That's the thing, ST. Very few will apply that level of common sense over the long term. Takes time and patience.

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: fouzman] #6860181
08/18/17 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: fouzman
That's the thing, ST. Very few will apply that level of common sense over the long term. Takes time and patience.
and cooperation from other lease members, land owners, so on so fourth.


Originally Posted by bill oxner
I plowed mules.
Originally Posted by Roll-Tide
I did build a cabin. Aka the brokeback shack.

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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860202
08/18/17 02:32 AM
08/18/17 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Bucks found on a property must be judged against other bucks on the ranch. It would be unfair to compare deer from South Texas with a deer from East Texas or Alabama or Indiana for that matter.


Quote:
Culling is best prescribed when there are too many deer for the habitat, otherwise there is no need to remove anything


We produce quality through quantity and riding things out for maturity.

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860268
08/18/17 04:23 AM
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Great post and read!

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: fouzman] #6860361
08/18/17 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: fouzman
tlk, thanks for posting that! Same basic program I learned from one of the fathers of modern day deer management. A program that anyone can easily follow, and adjust as years go by and the herd takes shape. I don't like to name names, but I'm proud to say I learned more about habitat, whitetails and marksmanship from Bill Maltsberger, over 15 years of hunting together, than I could have in three lifetimes on my own.



If you learned from him then you learned right - produced some of the best bucks anywhere and over a long period of time


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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860421
08/18/17 01:13 PM
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The best part about culling... it gives you something to shoot while you let the best of your best mature.


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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860455
08/18/17 01:52 PM
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Hmmm, let me throw this long-term research from south Texas in the conversation as a counter-point to the culling conversation. https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/research-programs/deer-research-program/deer-associates

Read "Evaluation of Culling Intensity and Criteria for Antler Traits in White-tailed Deer" This is a PowerPoint so it takes a minute to load and it is a bit academic, so at times hard to follow. I've seen the presentation twice in person.

https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/march-2016-presentations
Read: "Effectiveness of DMP Manipulation on Antler Size and the Power of Supplemental Feed" . This is also a PowerPoint. Pay attention to the last sentence on the second and third slide.

I'm a wildlife biologist/consultant and a "student of deer", now I can throw "student of quail" in there after completing the Quail Masters course. It doesn't appear that based on this pretty solid data that culling is effective. There are alternatives though to managing a herd to increase the quality of antler growth.

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: moosehntr] #6860491
08/18/17 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: moosehntr

I'm a wildlife biologist/consultant and a "student of deer", now I can throw "student of quail" in there after completing the Quail Masters course. It doesn't appear that based on this pretty solid data that culling is effective. There are alternatives though to managing a herd to increase the quality of antler growth.


That study keeps being trotted out almost as often as the spike study, but it really is limited in scale and duration.

Selective shooting can alter genetics given enough scale and time. The best example of that is that quality deer were "shot out" of areas, in essence culling the best out of the population producing a long-term downward trend in areas that previously had very large racked deer. The same can happen in a positive direction given large scale application at the state level and decades and decades of sustained effort.

Bill Maltsberger began heavy management of his deer in the late '60's and early '70's. Body weights and average rack sizes increased steadily over the next 40 years according to his records for the deer on his ranch.

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: rifleman] #6860496
08/18/17 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: rifleman
Quote:
Bucks found on a property must be judged against other bucks on the ranch. It would be unfair to compare deer from South Texas with a deer from East Texas or Alabama or Indiana for that matter.


Quote:
Culling is best prescribed when there are too many deer for the habitat, otherwise there is no need to remove anything


We produce quality through quantity and riding things out for maturity.


Anyone who who believes you can significantly improve genetics through culling simply doesn't understand genetics.

Last edited by therancher; 08/18/17 02:38 PM.

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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: therancher] #6860497
08/18/17 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: rifleman
Quote:
Bucks found on a property must be judged against other bucks on the ranch. It would be unfair to compare deer from South Texas with a deer from East Texas or Alabama or Indiana for that matter.


Quote:
Culling is best prescribed when there are too many deer for the habitat, otherwise there is no need to remove anything


We produce quality through quantity and riding things out for maturity.


Anyone who who believes you can improve genetics through culling simply doesn't understand genetics.


Really? I know of one ranch specifically that had lots of 6 points. They shot every single one on sight. After just ten years, the 6 pointers were very rare.

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: jeffbird] #6860503
08/18/17 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: rifleman
Quote:
Bucks found on a property must be judged against other bucks on the ranch. It would be unfair to compare deer from South Texas with a deer from East Texas or Alabama or Indiana for that matter.


Quote:
Culling is best prescribed when there are too many deer for the habitat, otherwise there is no need to remove anything


We produce quality through quantity and riding things out for maturity.


Anyone who who believes you can improve genetics through culling simply doesn't understand genetics.


Really? I know of one ranch specifically that had lots of 6 points. They shot every single one on sight. After just ten years, the 6 pointers were very rare.


If they didn't reduce does and bring does in they didn't significantly change genetics. Just like feeding DD protein, your data is flawed. For one or more of a myriad of reasons.

Last edited by therancher; 08/18/17 02:41 PM.

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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860530
08/18/17 03:03 PM
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To me culling is getting rid of what you don't want. Sure maybe by shooting that 6 pt your not getting rid of his genetic foot print, but you are getting rid of his real foot print, no need to let him occupy space, food, and does that other bucks you like could use.

Our general low fence area produced a buck I have pictures of but have not laid hands on that was told to me to be 20 inches wide and has 18 scorable points and the LF genetics produced that deer, no not every deer will be one, but the genetics are out there.

I toured a breeder a few months ago he said he and others he knew had tried for years to capture their biggest bucks on the HF property and pen them with does and said they never got a buck that was as good as their sire out of any of it. Yet how do you explain breeder bucks that routinely throw impressive offspring? I think a lot of it has to do with the intensity of your management. Like STX always said, you gotta shoot them all but the ones you like. From his pictures I cant help but believe that culling can have an impact with sufficient time and harvest.


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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860535
08/18/17 03:07 PM
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Yes, both this ranch with the 6 point problem, which was leased by RTP on here and Bill Maltsberger both shot lots and lots and lots of does. That has to be part of the program as they are half of the equation. Neither imported any animals.

Bill put 12 bucks in the B&C records in the later years and never imported any animals. So, he understood something about producing results.

RTP had a property on the eastern side of South Texas which is not known for having the genetics of the western side and was taking 160"+ deer every year in the last few years he had the place including a 180"+.

As a micro example, some high fence breeders continue to produce deer with higher scores than anything previously in existence through selective breeding and culling.

As pointed out in my other post, shot selection can drive things downward if only big bucks are shot. Look at photos of deer shot in Central Texas in the 1800's and there were some very big deer back then.

But, will say, we are now living in the golden age for white-tail.

It's a real shame stxranchman and RTP were run off. Both had lots of good info.


Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860545
08/18/17 03:15 PM
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I miss Stx, wish he would come back.


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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860603
08/18/17 03:58 PM
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First power point was very interesting. Couple big take homes from that study:
1. very intensive culling almost wiped out the buck population.
2. young deer had a much higher likelihood they would improve than older (4.5 and above) deer. almost 50% of yearling bucks improved ot the keep side, would have been interesting to see follow up on how many of those were culled over the remaining years as they continued to grow older, not just the next year.
3. pretty much 30% of all bucks went from keep to cull at any given age range. That was shocking to me.
4. They attributed almost 85% of the antler expression to environmental issue sand not genetics. We all know this isn't the case with some breeder bucks, but for native southwest texas deer, this was interesting.

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860607
08/18/17 04:05 PM
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Many of you have seen pictures of the bucks on our lease - we certainly manage in many areas and in many ways but one of the keys to our success is aggressive, long term culling of both does and inferior bucks - funny how I read a study saying don't cull while in the real world we see nothing but improvement in our herd. If it ain't broke I am not going to try to fix it


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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860622
08/18/17 04:22 PM
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tlk, what is your strategy for culling does? Which doe do you shoot and which do you leave alone? Just curious as I am about to enter into the era of deer management on my place (first year owned).

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860630
08/18/17 04:25 PM
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How many 3 yr olds are culled every year bc people can't age a deer and think they are older?


Originally Posted by bill oxner
I plowed mules.
Originally Posted by Roll-Tide
I did build a cabin. Aka the brokeback shack.

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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860676
08/18/17 05:03 PM
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Sapper, another one of the powerpoints linked (it wasn't the presentation referenced but it was on the link provided, the second link) was aging deer on the hoof. They did a multiple variable analysis of native deer in a low fence ranch and found there was not one single variable that consistently aged deer correctly. Even the roman nose was not a good indicator of a specific age, as several young deer had the roman nose but more importantly about 40% of old deer did not. Only indicator that was consistent was Boone and Crockett score.

Granted it was a single ranch, but tells us that aging deer on the hoof is multivariable and you have to look at a bunch of stuff, and even then, you might be wrong....

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: Texas buckeye] #6860692
08/18/17 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
tlk, what is your strategy for culling does? Which doe do you shoot and which do you leave alone? Just curious as I am about to enter into the era of deer management on my place (first year owned).



we do not get hung up on when we shoot our does. Last year we took around 90-100 - we obviously don't shoot does tha have fawns with them unless it is later in the year and the fawns are in good shape. We shoot barren does when we see them. Number of does we kill each year varies based off of helicopter survey of fawn survival, range conditions, and biologist recommendation.


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Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk] #6860696
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ok, so its more just keeping the doe population in line with the buck population. I am sure I will have to do some of that this year...

Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: moosehntr] #6860712
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Originally Posted By: moosehntr
Hmmm, let me throw this long-term research from south Texas in the conversation as a counter-point to the culling conversation. https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/research-programs/deer-research-program/deer-associates

Read "Evaluation of Culling Intensity and Criteria for Antler Traits in White-tailed Deer" This is a PowerPoint so it takes a minute to load and it is a bit academic, so at times hard to follow. I've seen the presentation twice in person.

https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/march-2016-presentations
Read: "Effectiveness of DMP Manipulation on Antler Size and the Power of Supplemental Feed" . This is also a PowerPoint. Pay attention to the last sentence on the second and third slide.

I'm a wildlife biologist/consultant and a "student of deer", now I can throw "student of quail" in there after completing the Quail Masters course. It doesn't appear that based on this pretty solid data that culling is effective. There are alternatives though to managing a herd to increase the quality of antler growth.


Here is a study to counter your study - again all I know from the real world is that our culling aggressively shows very strong results on our LF ranch. Must have experienced hunters good at aging - we also use video and trail pics and share with each other so as to limit mistakes. We also do not allow guest to hunt or shoot unless an experienced member is with them to make the call.

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/What to do with spike bucks_Goliad Coop (3).pdf

If that link does not work go to this one and scroll to the bottom of the article under "The Latest" - David Hewitt study from the Comanche Ranch

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/deer-scouting/the-facts-and-truth-about-culling-bucks

Last edited by tlk; 08/18/17 06:03 PM.

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