We are starting to build a pretty good herd of these on my small place near Campwood, i posted these a few years ago and everyone said they were Red Sheep or mouflon but now im noticing the horns are curling back more like the Armenians ive seen, what do you think? Their winter coats some of them will get a saddle patch and darker coat.

Red sheep are a cross of Armenians. Armenians are a type of mouflon. The sheep you have are not pure but definitely have Armenian in them. I think you could call them red sheep cross, Armenian cross or mouflon cross and all would probably be right.

I have European Mouflon on my place and they are the ones that curl in the front.

I would say they are red sheep. That said, as has already been stated a true red sheep is a Transcaspian x Armenian so you will see some horn shape variation. One clearly looks like a red sheep and the one photo of the ram with the horns sweeping back looks a lot like an Armenian. Nice sheep.

They are also all over our ranch, shot a ram 2 years ago and taxidermist told me it was PURE RED SHEEP!

Yes tony they come from the Ox behind us, i havent taken one yet waiting to find a full curl ram.

I know, I talked with Tony who was the OX manager at the SCI convention last year about them and he said they were pure Red Sheep. If you give me your e-mail address I will send you a pic from one I shot in 2014!

It sounds like they're free ranging. The herd won't be pure bred for long.

Red Sheep are a "hybrid" between the Armenian mouflon and the Transcaspian urial. The word Pure to describe a hybrid???

The Difference Between Hybrid and Purebred. Hybrid: Cross between two species. Hybrids are the offspring of two heterozygous parents. Purebred: come from one gene of species. Purebred are the offspring of two homozygous parents.

What about my GSP? I have pure bred papers and it was bred from 5 different dog breeds. I'm guessing a red sheep breeds with a red sheep and that creates a pure bred red sheep.

Find me some papers on a Red Sheep! I'll wait.
When the horns curl behind the neck the Armenian side prevails. When the horn tips curl forward the TCU traits show. When the horns curl downward then IMO you got more of the Red Sheep look. When looking at the rams on the Ox Ranch you see different horn and color configurations.

Armenian
Red sheep

My European mouflon came with paperwork proving they were pure breds. I bet you could get that same paperwork on red sheep. It tracks the lineage back to what zoo they came from.

Red sheep are common in the mountains of Iran where they originated naturally and in Texas. I think there's an argument that it's now a sheep species and can have a purebred classification. I don't know who classifies this but most exotic record books have red sheep as it's own class. Most hybrids or crosses do not show up in record books. Silk, red deer elk cross, mule deer whitetail cross. I'm not saying sci has the power to create a species, but I don't know who does.

Just like Mouflon if they don't have the complete package then IMO they are not Mouflon. I have no doubt you have great Mouflon. We have one thing in common we look for the mouflon history. However we both know there are Mouflon in the record books that have little if any history that's why I research the research. Enjoyed the conversation.

I don't know the answer but I'd love to know who decides this. What we're talking about is one of the reasons why I chose to go with mouflon over red sheep. I don't have any other sheep species on my place but my rams try really hard to breed my blackbuck does.

mouflonbok... I can see it now ...Lol

The OX Ranch "claims" that most red sheep in Texas are Armenian Mouflon x TCU hybrids but that they have " pure red sheep" from Iran. Interesting that Ovis states that red sheep are a naturally occurring hybrid ( Armenian xTCU) that are common in Iran.

So apparently if an Armenian and a TCU breed in the mountains of Iran you get a pure red sheep but if you cross an Armenian and a TCU in Texas on a ranch it is not a pure red sheep.

Hmm

We have a winner.

I would like to add.... ["The Armenian mouflon", is aka the Armenian sheep, aka Armenian wild sheep, aka Armenian red sheep"] .....then through further research Armenian is identified when horns curl behind the neck plus no bib under chin. When these traits are combined along with colors and markings Armenian identification is correct.
As confirmed an Armenian x TCU produces Red Sheep a hybrid which produces varying horn curls "plus" a full bib is present unlike the Armenian.

99% of sheep on hunting ranches are not pure breds. All it takes is another ram getting in your herd for a couple days and it's over. If it looks like it they sell it as pure. A big identifier for mouflon is tail length but you don't mount the tail.

HCHunter28,
"99% of sheep on hunting ranches are not pure breds. All it takes is another ram getting in your herd for a couple days and it's over. If it looks like it they sell it as pure. A big identifier for mouflon is tail length but you don't mount the tail."



That was my point. BTW, I would also argue that on European Mouflons the coloring on the face and legs are also indicators of a "pure" bred animals. I also think that in the case of Mouflons the pedigrees are a lot better than some of the other exotic sheep species. But my opinion is just that...my opinion.

Yep ...I've taken over a 100 species of game animals and I've never ask for papers. Let me see Alaskan Yukon or Canadian Moose? They looked a lot a like. Yet ...

All good info.., i just dont see as much of the bib like the transcaspians have on these but maybe because their not real old sheep or the Armenia. Gene is dominant. Their was a older one the guy i bought the property from had a pic of with a broken horn and it looked more transcaspian. Hopefully we can keep out other rams, theirs a big herd of Ewes and they all look similar.....we have alot of Aoudad around but they tend to stay separated.

Tails the easiest and then joints on the legs and then droopy ears. Face coloring seems harder except for the extremes. Just my opinion. Pure bred mouflon are tiny sheep and I think they are crossed to get bigger horns for hunting purposes.