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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: Tommar] #6682274 02/21/17 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tommar
Palehorse, I can understand the problem with feral hogs but do you allow people to come hunt them with you? I have no idea, maybe you do.

I just don't see how a landowner can complain about their hog problem and then say they either won't allow hunting or especially want to charge for it. Seems to me Mr. Landowner, your hog problem isn't as big as you make it to be.

Again, I am not insinuating this about you Palehorse as I don't know you so please don't take offense.


No offense taken. I invite folks year around to hunt hogs on my place, no charge. It's only 52 acres but it is very close to the Justin Hurst WMA. The hogs just move to the WMA as soon as there is any hunting pressure. They may shoot a couple of hogs and then get frustrated and give up the second or third day because the hogs are gone. Then the hogs come right back.

It's sort of like living in a roach infested apartment building. You can try to control them in your apartment, but if the rest of the building is infested, you'll never get them under control.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6682331 02/21/17 03:07 PM
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: Tommar] #6682337 02/21/17 03:16 PM
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I can see both sides of the argument on this.

In defense of the landowner, if you want your land for raising something besides hogs and are not looking to become a hog guiding place, then I can see how poisoning them is a good option. It keeps random folks from hunting your land (whom maybe don't clean up their trash, act like idiots, disrespect guidelines you give them, etc.), while continuously putting pressure on the hog population. Unlike a hunter who may head home if he doesn't see anything and possibly never come back since he was unsuccessful, the poison is out there, rain or shine, controlling the hog population.

In defense of the hunter, it can be hard to find a place to hunt in Texas. The state is very heavily privately owned and many hunters, myself included, pay to hunt on people's properties because they do not have access to private land. So, when you tell them that something they want to shoot is not being made available to them, it's a bit infuriating. Additionally, there is the concern about the poison itself. What happens if a hog wonders from a poisoned ranch onto a ranch that folks actively hunt. What if other animals get a hold of the poison or eat the dead poisoned hogs?

Now, just speaking for myself, as someone who loves to hunt, has not shot hundreds of animals like some here have, and likes to eat game meat, I would love for the chance to come out and shoot as many hogs as I could find on someones property who does not want them. It also makes me very concerned for future hog hunts as I like to eat game meat - how do I know the hogs on the property I shot are pesticide free?!

Anyway, that's my rant. If you happen to be a rancher who has an out of control hog population and are considering poisoning your hogs. Would love the chance to shoot some before you poison them - I'll even pay you $10 per hog I shoot! PM Me.


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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6682417 02/21/17 04:26 PM
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Last year, a guy I work with wanted to come hunt hogs out at my place. I said, "Sure, just leave the place like you found it" and I gave him the combination to the gate. He went in with his heavy diesel 4x4, drove all over the place getting stuck twice. He then called another guy to come help him get unstuck. He spread corn all over and area and just sat one day waiting for the hogs to show. They did not show until he left. They rooted up the area even worse than before. Between the two 4x4's rutting up the place, and the huge sounder of hogs that showed up to eat all the corn, my place looked worse than ever.

I still allow folks to hunt, but now no one goes out there unless escorted by myself or one of my sons. I also don't allow baiting for fear of attracting more than get shot. I have learned the hard way, just allowing access will not make even a small dent in the population, and may make the situation worse.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6682607 02/21/17 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: Palehorse

No offense taken. I invite folks year around to hunt hogs on my place, no charge. It's only 52 acres but it is very close to the Justin Hurst WMA. The hogs just move to the WMA as soon as there is any hunting pressure. They may shoot a couple of hogs and then get frustrated and give up the second or third day because the hogs are gone. Then the hogs come right back.

It's sort of like living in a roach infested apartment building. You can try to control them in your apartment, but if the rest of the building is infested, you'll never get them under control.


Similar issue here in SouthTex. If I hit a sounder, I wouldn't see them back for a few days. But each time I would see them 8-10 were missing until no more piggies. Then years of no more piggies for me crying So hunting a small area will be hit or miss and unless it's close too hard to keep sustained pressure up.

Federal WMA is safe haven for the hogs, so they cannot be eradicated in the area. I gave up on getting a night permit to shoot them within the WMA.
As long as Feds and landowners allow hogs a place to reproduce they will. Getting rid of them or controlling the numbers is not a problem I have, as they can be shot way faster then they can reproduce. A sounder of 30 can be wiped out in a week and it takes years for a couple to get back to that number. I could have finished them off in a few days but did not have access to the property they ran off to so I have to wait for them to come back. Getting access to the areas they are at is the problem. When they run off they go somewhere, they don't keep running. Difference is if you can go after them you can keep up the pressure. I have tracked them back to the WMA 6 miles away in one area, and private land I do not have access to in another area. There are 10's of thousands of acres of crops with no hog activity in my area Hidalgo, Cameron, and Willacy counties. So the hogs are coming to get you is not everywhere crops are planted.

The poisoning situation is just a result of inability to solve the problem with the tools at hand for those with a hog problem costing them $$$$. So if someone can make some $$$$ off the situation of farmers/ranchers losing $$$$ solutions will be offered. Look at the I have a hog problem for x amount of $$$ you can help me get rid of them up. Usually the big $$$$ wins out cuz we have the best Politicians money can buy, and they are bought all the time.
flag

Not a hog problem as was said by others years back, it's a people problem. The farmers that I have helped out have asked me if I needed any $$$ for getting rid of the hogs cuz the equipment involved is expensive, and the big difference it made in the amount of hogs shot per night. I have not accepted 1 cent but have not paid to hunt either and 1000's of lbs of hog meat later I am out of hogs. Except for the stragglers that wonder off the protected areas. I have not seen any requests for shooters due to hog problems, except Monty a few years back requested a few shooters for some stubborn hogs the dogs were after, lucky for me I was headed back home from OK and met up with him and added the backstraps to my hog meat already in the cooler from a hunt on the W T Waggoner ranch a few days before. Maybe Texas Agri Life extension could host a web page to put farmers with hog problems with shooters and a rating system so the disrespectful turds will be flushed out of the shooters pool. Nothing worse then finding your property in worse shape after doing someone a favor. I have no problem loading up the camper and heading out for an extended weekend to help someone get rid of large sounders hogs, and I do have a f350 diesel 4x4 but won't tear up your roads or leave any trash behind only footprints and carcasses for the yotes (don't bait the area as it will bring more hogs).
soap

Last edited by Hard_ware; 02/21/17 07:15 PM.

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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683109 02/22/17 02:25 AM
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So who is right...

The Texas Department of Agriculture reports that extensive testing of warfarin has been conducted in Texas in partnership with Scimetrics Ltd. Corp. since 2008 with the approval of warfarin as a safe control for feral hogs .

Warfarin is reported to be a logical choice for hog toxicant, because it is effective in swine but requires much higher dosage levels to potentially affect other wildlife populations or livestock.

The Texas A&M Agrilife Extension Service is supportive of the rule change and the use of warfarin for feral hog population control.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683204 02/22/17 03:53 AM
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Hope this stupid idea gets stopped. Amazing what some under the table kickbacks & political cronyism will get you. I enjoy hunting & eating hogs & don't want sick & poisoned pigs coming onto my property.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: AvianQuest] #6683258 02/22/17 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: AvianQuest
So who is right...

The Texas Department of Agriculture reports that extensive testing of warfarin has been conducted in Texas in partnership with Scimetrics Ltd. Corp. since 2008 with the approval of warfarin as a safe control for feral hogs .

Scimetrics is the Sister company of Genesis Laboratories (the testing company). Scimetrics is the company that will SELL the product. Gee....I wonder if TDA maybe got some 'funding'?

Warfarin is reported to be a logical choice for hog toxicant, because it is effective in swine but requires much higher dosage levels to potentially affect other wildlife populations or livestock.

Well....that depends very much on WHAT animal ingests it, how much and how often. I can't find any information on the studies they've done, just the 'claim'.

The Texas A&M Agrilife Extension Service is supportive of the rule change and the use of warfarin for feral hog population control.

Well....of course they are. But lets see what their position is after a few years...when the system proves to be woefully ineffective (save for lining some pockets). My guess is...they will be a little more cautious of jumping on board of the next 'magic' solution to come down the pike.



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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683349 02/22/17 01:26 PM
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Exactly, Flint...

I would add that the Texas Ag Commissioner used a lot of old, tired data in his news conference yesterday. He reported $800 million in damage yearly across the nation. Well, that number comes from an "estimate" made by a veterinarian from Cornell University in 2005. The Ag commissioner also used the number of 52 million in damage a year in Texas. Well, that number comes from an estimate by Dr. Lynn back in 2008. It is next to impossible to get the data on the methodology that these estimates were based on.

But lets just say this, it tells me they have no new real research to tell them what the real numbers are or they wouldn't be using estimates that are in some cases over a decade old. Before you go putting out feeders containing a strong poison, I would hope you would at least do some real research to determine just what the amount of damage really is and if it is localized or widespread. Louisiana has said they have areas that have actually plateaued and some that have dropped in population, speculating that maybe they have reached the carrying capacity in some areas.

I could go on and on, but before we go buying what "he said" or "they said", we need to stop and take a harder look. The real data behind decisions needs to be made public and there needs to be discussion. I could speculate as to what I think is driving this, but I'm more in to facts.

Last edited by dfwroadkill; 02/22/17 01:27 PM.
Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683435 02/22/17 02:59 PM
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Maybe this has been covered already, farmer Jones puts poison out on his place. Hog eats it and crosses over to where I hunt. I shoot the hog and and process it? What happens now?


Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683450 02/22/17 03:19 PM
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Here is a pdf link about it and how to use it...
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/072500-00026-20170103.pdf

One thing the PDF really does show is how labor intensive use of Kaput will be. This alone may be the reason for the downfall of using this bait. Aside from the particular conditions in which the traps are supposed to be set up and the hogs have to be trained to use the traps, check out this last section...

Quote:
SURVEILLANCE AND FOLLOW-UP:
Dead hogs may begin to appear in or near the treatment areas within 4 to 7
days after bait placement. Applicators must return to the treatment site within 4 days after the first bait placements
were made, and at 2- to 4-day intervals thereafter, to inspect the site for evidence of dead or dying feral hogs and/or
dead nontarget animals. All carcasses found must be disposed of properly. Carcasses may be buried on site in
holes dug deeply enough that the entire carcass is at least 18 inches below the ground surface. Cover buried
carcasses up to the level of the surrounding ground. If burial is not practical (e.g., due to frozen or extremely hard
ground) and other disposal methods are allowed by State and local authorities, carcasses may be disposed of by
other methods to ensure that carcasses are not accessible to scavengers. Continue to monitor the treatment area to
collect and dispose of feral hogs and to search for non-target animals for at least two weeks after the removal of all
bait from the hog feeders. Deaths of any animals other than feral hogs that appear to be the result of baiting with this
product must be reported to State authorities.


I can't imagine anybody staying with this program for very long. How many farmers do you think that are going to bury dozens or hundreds of hogs? How many are going to drive around their properties, looking for dead carcasses to protect nature from ingesting them and getting poisoned. You can bet that folks will not be reporting their by-kills. This has Charlie Foxtrot written all over it.


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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: GLC] #6683491 02/22/17 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: GLC
Maybe this has been covered already, farmer Jones puts poison out on his place. Hog eats it and crosses over to where I hunt. I shoot the hog and and process it? What happens now?


This is from the link that Rexmitchel posted earlier.

"The state agriculture spokesman tells KXAN that the hog’s fatty tissues are dyed blue from the bait so anyone hunting the hogs would know it had ingested that much warfarin. He says if the meat were ingested, a person would have to eat two pounds of wild hog liver to ingest as much warfarin as the low-end of a normal daily dose for a person that’s on warfarin for blood clot prevention"

Last edited by Palehorse; 02/22/17 03:45 PM.
Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683492 02/22/17 03:45 PM
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This has complete disaster written all over it. I'm pretty sure this is double the dose of Warafin (5%) as opposed to what is in rat bait (2.5%).

I have seen numerous barn cats and dogs killed (or made extremely sick) with the dosage in rat bait. I don't believe for one second that double the doseage rate will have little to no toxicity to non-target species.

Fact is people are stupid - I'd bet a lot of people get perturbed with the labor intensive prescribed application process and will go straight to dumping this crap on the ground. Ain't going to end well.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683507 02/22/17 03:53 PM
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SURVEILLANCE AND FOLLOW-UP:
Dead hogs may begin to appear in or near the treatment areas within 4 to 7
days after bait placement.
Applicators must return to the treatment site within 4 days after the first bait placements
were made, and at 2- to 4-day intervals thereafter, to inspect the site for evidence of dead or dying feral hogs and/or
dead nontarget animals. All carcasses found must be disposed of properly. Carcasses may be buried on site in
holes dug deeply enough that the entire carcass is at least 18 inches below the ground surface. Cover buried
carcasses up to the level of the surrounding ground. If burial is not practical (e.g., due to frozen or extremely hard
ground) and other disposal methods are allowed by State and local authorities, carcasses may be disposed of by
other methods to ensure that carcasses are not accessible to scavengers. Continue to monitor the treatment area to
collect and dispose of feral hogs and to search for non-target animals for at least two weeks after the removal of all
bait from the hog feeders. Deaths of any animals other than feral hogs that appear to be the result of baiting with this
product must be reported to State authorities.

How far may those dying hogs travel in 4 to 7 days? Who will be responsible to dispose of dead hogs? The person that poisoned them or or the land owner that finds them dead? I can see a whole lot of wrong going on here. One person poisons then leaving someone else to clean up the mess.


Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683518 02/22/17 04:06 PM
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Poisoning is nothing like a new discovery. It has been done for many, many years with varying degrees of success and failure so we shall see how well this works and if there are any undesired effects. At the end of the day I am all for anything that kills feral hogs. They are a vile, destructive pestilence and they must be destroyed. I hate them. They need to go and if there are a few unwanted consequences so be it. I am certain these consequences have been anticipated.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683528 02/22/17 04:14 PM
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Here is a big problem with hogs. Some people like them, they are never going to go away. If they do someone will release more because they like them.

My backyard on my 1.5 acre lot looks like a drunk guy chased some rabbits on a trencher last night and the last time we were at the ranch we got a tractor stuck in some hog rooting it was so deep. I don't particularly like this solution though.


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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683570 02/22/17 04:31 PM
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Australia has a sodium nitrite based poison that one can still eat the meat and kills a hog in 1-2 hours, seems using Warfarin poses many problems. i just read a article from australia stating eating a hog that had a lethal dose of sodium nitrite one would still be consuming a dosage way under one would get from getting meats and plants in a typical grocerie store. Seems very interesting. If all this is true why the hell use Warfarin, besides the pharmacutical companies putting their hands in someones pockets.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: agsellers04] #6683635 02/22/17 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: agsellers04
Poisoning is nothing like a new discovery. It has been done for many, many years with varying degrees of success and failure so we shall see how well this works and if there are any undesired effects. At the end of the day I am all for anything that kills feral hogs. They are a vile, destructive pestilence and they must be destroyed. I hate them. They need to go and if there are a few unwanted consequences so be it. I am certain these consequences have been anticipated.


Understand totally, but, what about those of us that eat the hogs? Is this just an "unwanted consequences" to us meat eaters, a bad decision or something more? I am ok with poisoning them but whoever does this best keep them on their property until they expire. They should not put the burden on someone else in case something or someone that may consume the poisoned animal gets sick or worse. I don't think this is any different than having responsibility your projectile crossing a fence line. If you poison and it causes an issue somewhere else, you are responsible for the consequences. I believe you can do what you want on your property until it effects someone else outside of your property.


Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683670 02/22/17 05:36 PM
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State registered use meams licensed applicators only can get it. Blue dye would show up quickly and liver would clue you in that its bad to eat. It wont be widely used enough to affect hardly any hunting.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: Cochise] #6683673 02/22/17 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Cochise
This has complete disaster written all over it. I'm pretty sure this is double the dose of Warafin (5%) as opposed to what is in rat bait (2.5%).

I have seen numerous barn cats and dogs killed (or made extremely sick) with the dosage in rat bait. I don't believe for one second that double the doseage rate will have little to no toxicity to non-target species.

Fact is people are stupid - I'd bet a lot of people get perturbed with the labor intensive prescribed application process and will go straight to dumping this crap on the ground. Ain't going to end well.


Only licensed applicators can get it and use it. Secondly your percentages are off. Its .005%. Most rat baits are se percentage of a different active ingredient as many rats have developed resistence to warfarin so bromethalin and bromadialone are much much more common.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: flintknapper] #6683690 02/22/17 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: huntandfish
Australia has a sodium nitrite based poison that one can still eat the meat and kills a hog in 1-2 hours, seems using Warfarin poses many problems. i just read a article from australia stating eating a hog that had a lethal dose of sodium nitrite one would still be consuming a dosage way under one would get from getting meats and plants in a typical grocerie store. Seems very interesting. If all this is true why the hell use Warfarin, besides the pharmacutical companies putting their hands in someones pockets .

I figure as Flintknapper stated below....the testing company and provider are sister companies.....figure they have someone in their pocket pushing this thru.....follow the money..... 2cents

Originally Posted By: flintknapper
Originally Posted By: AvianQuest
So who is right...

The Texas Department of Agriculture reports that extensive testing of warfarin has been conducted in Texas in partnership with Scimetrics Ltd. Corp. since 2008 with the approval of warfarin as a safe control for feral hogs .

Scimetrics is the Sister company of Genesis Laboratories (the testing company). Scimetrics is the company that will SELL the product. Gee....I wonder if TDA maybe got some 'funding'?

Warfarin is reported to be a logical choice for hog toxicant, because it is effective in swine but requires much higher dosage levels to potentially affect other wildlife populations or livestock.

Well....that depends very much on WHAT animal ingests it, how much and how often. I can't find any information on the studies they've done, just the 'claim'.

The Texas A&M Agrilife Extension Service is supportive of the rule change and the use of warfarin for feral hog population control.

Well....of course they are. But lets see what their position is after a few years...when the system proves to be woefully ineffective (save for lining some pockets). My guess is...they will be a little more cautious of jumping on board of the next 'magic' solution to come down the pike.


Call me a skeptic...but when the government shows up and says "I'm here to help" I start to worry.......


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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683809 02/22/17 06:55 PM
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Contacted my rep today. We'll see what they come up with.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: GLC] #6683820 02/22/17 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: GLC
Originally Posted By: agsellers04
Poisoning is nothing like a new discovery. It has been done for many, many years with varying degrees of success and failure so we shall see how well this works and if there are any undesired effects. At the end of the day I am all for anything that kills feral hogs. They are a vile, destructive pestilence and they must be destroyed. I hate them. They need to go and if there are a few unwanted consequences so be it. I am certain these consequences have been anticipated.


Understand totally, but, what about those of us that eat the hogs? Is this just an "unwanted consequences" to us meat eaters, a bad decision or something more? I am ok with poisoning them but whoever does this best keep them on their property until they expire. They should not put the burden on someone else in case something or someone that may consume the poisoned animal gets sick or worse. I don't think this is any different than having responsibility your projectile crossing a fence line. If you poison and it causes an issue somewhere else, you are responsible for the consequences. I believe you can do what you want on your property until it effects someone else outside of your property.


The hog eaters may just have to forego the eating of hogs for fear of poisoning after this starts happening. I see that as a worthy sacrifice to kill more of these hogs because the bigger problem is this invasive species destroying agriculture, property, and habitat. Looks like the studies show that the dosages that would be in the hogs would be non-harmful to humans but I would not stake my health on it.

I can see the neighborly thing to do would be to go get your poisoned hog from the neighbor (if you can even tell whether it is a hog you poisoned or not) if it really ends up presenting that big of a problem but I do not see the state enforcing a law like they do with a projectile crossing a property line.

Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: krmitchell] #6683823 02/22/17 07:08 PM
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Quote:
I figure as Flintknapper stated below....the testing company and provider are sister companies.....figure they have someone in their pocket pushing this thru.....follow the money.....


This just means that the testing results cannot be considered credible because the testing company is directly tied to the manufacturer. It doesn't mean that the result are necessarily invalid (or valid), only that they cannot be trusted because they were not done by an independent company. If the claim is made that the warfarin is now being allowed to be used because "they have somebody in their pocket" then it is just as validly argued that such measures haven't been made legal yet because the hunting industry has had people in their pocket all these years. Right? There is just as much evidence to support this, huh? Or maybe we are just okay with things when they are in our favor? It is only a foul if the other side does it?

Come on, casting dispersions really without the facts to back up the claims is just logic fallacy. That we don't like the idea doesn't mean anything illegal has happened here.

Now, if you have followed the money and have some actual proof, let's hear it.


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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs [Re: flintknapper] #6683826 02/22/17 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: flintknapper
Originally Posted By: AvianQuest
So who is right...

The Texas Department of Agriculture reports that extensive testing of warfarin has been conducted in Texas in partnership with Scimetrics Ltd. Corp. since 2008 with the approval of warfarin as a safe control for feral hogs .

Scimetrics is the Sister company of Genesis Laboratories (the testing company). Scimetrics is the company that will SELL the product. Gee....I wonder if TDA maybe got some 'funding'?

Warfarin is reported to be a logical choice for hog toxicant, because it is effective in swine but requires much higher dosage levels to potentially affect other wildlife populations or livestock.

Well....that depends very much on WHAT animal ingests it, how much and how often. I can't find any information on the studies they've done, just the 'claim'.

The Texas A&M Agrilife Extension Service is supportive of the rule change and the use of warfarin for feral hog population control.

Well....of course they are. But lets see what their position is after a few years...when the system proves to be woefully ineffective (save for lining some pockets). My guess is...they will be a little more cautious of jumping on board of the next 'magic' solution to come down the pike.



From thinking about it, I don't think using warfarin would be harmful to people.

You have to think that the drug first is ingested by an animal. The drug is then distributed in their tissues based on the lipid solubility. You are going to cook the meat first, which will destroy much of the drug. I think their estimates of 2lbs a day is probably not unrealistic. Granted, I've seen people on doses as low as 3 mg a week plus supplemental vitamin K, to as high as over a hundred mg a week. Add on top of that most people aren't going to be eating poisoned hog routinely, and only the ones that would be in realistic danger are people who have an underlying vitamin K problem or are already on warfarin, who should be getting their INR/PT checked anyways.

If you then suppose that the hogs that are able to travel and survive to get hunted on some other place probably have ingested lower amounts to not die from the coagulopathy, the risk to hunters gets lower. Also consider that warfarin is very cheap, and your financial incentive to mislead is less.

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