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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6679775
02/19/17 01:45 AM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,599
Creekrunner
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Bring it. 'Heard they were using this in Australia. I was told it's in a free choice container that only the strength of a pig's snout can lift. We'll see.
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...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6679791
02/19/17 02:07 AM
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Joined: Mar 2012
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1860.colt
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We used the BBT ta control the hogs, & deer # increased, 4 deer county when i left...
i'm postaddic
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: Creekrunner]
#6679799
02/19/17 02:14 AM
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SnakeWrangler
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I'd be concerned with what effects it would have on animals that eat the dead pigs.....to include humans who shoot and consume a pig they didn't know was poisoned..... Still, I can see something like this being extremely beneficial in the battle against feral hogs...... From Wikipedia...... Warfarin, sold under the brand name Coumadin among others, is a medication that is used as a blood thinner.[3] It is commonly used to treat blood clots such as deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism and to prevent stroke in people who have atrial fibrillation, valvular heart disease or artificial heart valves.[3] Less commonly it is used following ST-segment elevation myocardial infarction (STEMI) and orthopedic surgery.[3] It is generally taken by mouth but may also be used by injection into a vein.[3]
The common side effect is bleeding. Less common side effects may include tissue death and purple toes syndrome. Use is not generally recommended during pregnancy. It is recommended that the effects of warfarin typically be monitored via the INR every one to four weeks.[3] Many other medications and dietary factors can interact with warfarin, either increasing or decreasing its effectiveness.[3][4] The effects of warfarin may be reversed with phytonadione (vitamin K1), fresh frozen plasma, or prothrombin complex concentrate.[4]
Warfarin decreases blood clotting by blocking the enzyme vitamin K oxide reductase that reactivates vitamin K1.[4] Without sufficient active vitamin K1, clotting factors II, VII, IX, and X have decreased clotting ability.[4] The anticlotting protein C and protein S are also inhibited but to a lesser degree.[4] A few days are required for full effect to occur and these effects can last for up to five days.[5][3]
Warfarin first came into commercial use in 1948 as a rat poison.[6] In 1954 it was approved for medical use in the United States.[3] It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, the most effective and safe medicines needed in a health system.[7] Warfarin is avaliable as a generic medication.[8] The wholesale cost in the developing world is about 1.12 to 7.20 USD for a typical month of treatment.[9] In the United States it usually costs less than 25 USD a month.[10]
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: 1860.colt]
#6679808
02/19/17 02:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 66,110
SnakeWrangler
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RODENT POSION
Coumarins (4-hydroxycoumarin derivatives) are used as rodenticides for controlling rats and mice in residential, industrial, and agricultural areas. Warfarin is both odorless and tasteless, and is effective when mixed with food bait, because the rodents will return to the bait and continue to feed over a period of days until a lethal dose is accumulated (considered to be 1 mg/kg/day over about six days). It may also be mixed with talc and used as a tracking powder, which accumulates on the animal's skin and fur, and is subsequently consumed during grooming. The LD50 is 50–500 mg/kg. The IDLH value is 100 mg/m3 (warfarin; various species).[81]
The use of warfarin itself as a rat poison is now declining, because many rat populations have developed resistance to it, and poisons of considerably greater potency are now available. Other 4-hydroxycoumarins used as rodenticides include coumatetralyl and brodifacoum, which is sometimes referred to as "super-warfarin", because it is more potent, longer-acting, and effective even in rat and mouse populations that are resistant to warfarin. Unlike warfarin, which is readily excreted, newer anticoagulant poisons also accumulate in the liver and kidneys after ingestion.[82] However, such rodenticides may also accumulate in birds of prey and other animals that eat the poisoned rodents or baits.[83]
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6679816
02/19/17 02:28 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
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krmitchell
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Eating one that you didn't know was poisoned is concerning.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6679842
02/19/17 02:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,800
TexasKC
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JMO but I'd rather see the scientists find a way to interrupt the breeding cycle of hogs. Not crazy about the idea of using poison on animals that other animals eat.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count, it's the life in your years.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: TexasKC]
#6679853
02/19/17 03:07 AM
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Posts: 66,110
SnakeWrangler
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JMO but I'd rather see the scientists find a way to interrupt the breeding cycle of hogs. Not crazy about the idea of using poison on animals that other animals eat. ....and that people eat.....
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: SnakeWrangler]
#6679859
02/19/17 03:12 AM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,800
TexasKC
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JMO but I'd rather see the scientists find a way to interrupt the breeding cycle of hogs. Not crazy about the idea of using poison on animals that other animals eat. ....and that people eat..... Roger that.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count, it's the life in your years.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6679872
02/19/17 03:22 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,339
Double Naught Spy
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If dyes are used as they do for rat poison (I don't know if all brands do this or not), then the fat in the body will change color to the color of the dye as with the blue fat pig seen here that apparently had eaten rodent poison. http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2015/09/10/photos-wild-pig-blue-fat-found-california/That would be helpful. I think maybe the biggest safety concern for humans is the consumption of warfarin hogs by humans already on meds like warfarin.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6679875
02/19/17 03:23 AM
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 247
2hellandback
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6679897
02/19/17 03:40 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
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Hard_ware
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Skip the blood thinner meds and eat a blue porkchop. My concern is eating a hog that was medicated/poisoned. So hope the blue fat is not something that happens after prolonged consumption, but after single dose. Maybe hogs with heart problems will be cured.
Last edited by Hard_ware; 02/19/17 03:41 AM.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: Creekrunner]
#6679911
02/19/17 03:55 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,453
dfwroadkill
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Bring it. 'Heard they were using this in Australia. I was told it's in a free choice container that only the strength of a pig's snout can lift. We'll see. Totally different product than what has been used in Australia.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: TexasKC]
#6679915
02/19/17 04:04 AM
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krmitchell
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JMO but I'd rather see the scientists find a way to interrupt the breeding cycle of hogs. Not crazy about the idea of using poison on animals that other animals eat. Agree, find something that sterilizes them or otherwise stops or slows them from reproducing.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6679968
02/19/17 06:16 AM
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 247
2hellandback
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JMO but I'd rather see the scientists find a way to interrupt the breeding cycle of hogs. Not crazy about the idea of using poison on animals that other animals eat. Agree, find something that sterilizes them or otherwise stops or slows them from reproducing. BIG X3
Last edited by 2hellandback; 02/19/17 06:17 AM.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680116
02/19/17 03:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,271
Palehorse
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Here is an interesting article on the use of warfarin on hogs. It discusses the technique to use the poison and it's potential danger to other wildlife. http://www.nola.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2017/02/wild_hog_poison_likely_coming.html I sure hope this works out. It seems like collateral damage can be minimized if the folks applying the poison act responsibly and use it correctly. My concern is, there will be some hootleheads that don't really care what else it kills and will just haphazardly pour it on the ground. I've been hog hunting here on the coast most of this last week. The hog population down here was out of hand before, this year it has been insane. We just can't kill enough of them. The damage they are doing to some prime coastal whitetail habitat is really heartbreaking. It has dramatically reduced the carrying capacity for not just deer, but all wildlife. As much as I enjoy hunting them, I'll be glad to see their numbers knocked WAY down.
Last edited by Palehorse; 02/19/17 03:59 PM.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680155
02/19/17 04:31 PM
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Posts: 8,339
Double Naught Spy
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Interesting Palehorse. You have to bait the trap for many weeks with non-lethal bait so as to acclimatize the hogs to the trap and to teach them how to use it and then change over to the poison bait and kill the educated hogs, then start the process anew when to kill other hogs. Interesting. Sounds like a lot of time an expense to get hogs to learn to use the feeder. Sounds like a lot of down time when the feeder isn't killing hogs.
I am not convinced by what is described that non-target species will be protected all that well. I would anticipate a lot of bird die offs to result, squirrels, raccoons, etc.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680183
02/19/17 05:03 PM
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Dragonuv
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I have no idea why they'd choose to use warfarin. Sodium Nitrite would be a much better option, since it metabolizes very quickly, and most animals can't eat enough at a time to do them significant harm. Pigs are the exception...for some reason SN works extremely well on them, whereas Warfarin is dangerous to all animals. Pigs being, well...pigs, will inevitably knock bait out or the pig specific bait dispensers, making it fair game for other nontarget animals. I'd sure like to hear their reasoning behind approving such an indiscriminate toxin such as warfarin. Especially in light of recent legislation concerning proposed restrictions on both otc and restricted use rodenticides, in addition to the well established FIFRA legislation already in effect.
PS: The colored dyes in rodent baits do not change the color of their tissues. It's simply a colored parrafin wax that passes through their system.
Last edited by Dragonuv; 02/19/17 05:18 PM.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680194
02/19/17 05:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 66,110
SnakeWrangler
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If you're going to acclimate the pigs to the bait site why not just use sodium cyanide that's used for predator control....seems to me if your are going to replace bait with poison why not go with something that really hammers them....should make recovery and disposal easier too....
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: SnakeWrangler]
#6680207
02/19/17 05:30 PM
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Dragonuv
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If you're going to acclimate the pigs to the bait site why not just use sodium cyanide that's used for predator control....seems to me if your are going to replace bait with poison why not go with something that really hammers them....should make recovery and disposal easier too.... Any form of cyanide, which is a heavy metal, is accumulative in the tissues, especially the liver and kidneys. It's a highly systemic toxin, which cannot be metabolized by the body. If a bobcat eats a dog that ate a cat that ate a rat that ate cyanide...everyone involved in that food chain is likely to be affected. If a pig eats a non-lethal dose and then gets shot by a hunter, anyone that partakes of that meat could conceivably ingest some.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680208
02/19/17 05:30 PM
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flintknapper
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This is just so crazy. Both the bait and poison delivery system are markedly flawed.
Why Warfarin has been chosen instead of Sodium Nitrite is beyond me. Plus the delivery system (they've been testing and have had doubts about for years) just isn't going to work and folks are going to start pouring the stuff right out on the ground.
This is a prime example of how if you get enough people together (wanting to make profit) you can (eventually) get any ridiculous product out on the market.
Everything about this effort is destined to fail....except the money making.
I agree that some 'method' (that can be applied on a large scale) is needed if we ever hope to trim back the hog population, but THIS isn't it.
Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680245
02/19/17 05:59 PM
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Dragonuv
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It also raises another question... What state licensing will this product fall under? Commercial, non-commercial, private...or all of them? Relatively few farmers are licensed for herbicide application, and even fewer are licensed for pesticide/rodenticide application. I can only imagine what the bait and dispensers will cost, not only to buy, but to maintain. They'll also need to be checked several times a week to make sure no product has been spilled or knocked out into the open area beyond the protection of the dispenser, thereby making it accessible to non-target animals. I'd also like to know how the state will react to the death of game animals due to the use of this product, or any animal besides pigs. Will Farmer Brown be fined and/or imprisoned if he accidentally kills a deer or his neighbors dog with this stuff? You can't expect people to put a toxin in the woods, and then not expect collateral damage as a result. Just the rodenticides we use for rats and mice are enough to kill a dog or a small kid, so any amount in doses large enough to kill an adult pig will play havoc with just about anything in the state...including calves, foals, and fawns.
Last edited by Dragonuv; 02/19/17 06:00 PM.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680265
02/19/17 06:23 PM
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SnakeWrangler
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Just sounds like another one of those..."Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help...." scenarios...
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680293
02/19/17 07:03 PM
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Getting the hogs to keep coming back to a feeder is needed for this to work. I see shooting them much faster. Issue is sustained pressure. But with not knowing who has hog problems and getting access to property. Oklahoma had a online data base of information on reported hog problems but it didn't seem to be used much. Something along those lines would put shooters in touch with landowners that need them. As well as provide a method of feedback on shooters success.
Last edited by Hard_ware; 02/19/17 07:05 PM.
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Re: Poison approved to control feral hogs
[Re: krmitchell]
#6680296
02/19/17 07:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Sniper John
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Articles about, knowledge of the poison ingredient, and persons learning how warfarin works on hogs, is only going to lead to persons using easily available warfarin based poisons labeled for rodent control in attempt to control hogs. The haphazard baiting that will come with the illegal off label use has great potential to create a lot of problems with off target animals wild, pet, and domestic. And us when we eat a warfarin rodenticide baited hog or sell it to a feral hog buyer headed to a foreign market. IMHO, ripe with potential problems in many ways.
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