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MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! #5998314 10/28/15 01:30 PM
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HuntinForTail Offline OP
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Anyone else on an MLD 3 that imposes antler restrictions?

Here is our situation. We are on a timber company lease that hires a forestry management company to handle the hunting leases. The forestry management company has a biologist who makes sure we have our MLD, helps do surveys, helps age jaw bones, makes sure the camp is kept in good condition, etc. The last couple years he has mandated a 13 inch rule and a rule that bucks have to be 4.5 or older, which goes against the point of MLD.

Anyone else run into this?

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998356 10/28/15 02:00 PM
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How many members and how many permits? Usually when I run into leases that do that, it's bc there's more members than actual permits and it's a way to slow down getting them filled.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998371 10/28/15 02:08 PM
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This may be bait but here I go.

Sounds like a well managed place to me. Should be a great lease over time ieven if you don't agree with all the rules. If you have a serious point of difference with the biologist and his practices get a different lease. You will not change the timber comapny's mind about a man they hired with a degree.

Not sure what you are implying the point of MLD is. In my opinion it is not to shoot deer that are under 13 inches or under 4.5 years old.

I know the AR thing is a hot debate. I am a big proponent of letting deer grow but certainly have seen deer that need to be shot that don't meet ARs. As far management goes I am personally lazy so I don't really worry about it. I have seen the results of good management and think restrictions especially on heavily managed places have to be adjusted so often.

I just hunt the big deer as I am the only hunter on most of the places I hunt and couldn't manage them myself anyhow. So I just don't worry about the ugly, small ones that don't meet ARs.


-Those who say money can't buy happiness never bought a dog.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: rifleman] #5998378 10/28/15 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: rifleman
How many members and how many permits? Usually when I run into leases that do that, it's bc there's more members than actual permits and it's a way to slow down them getting filled.


Good point


-Those who say money can't buy happiness never bought a dog.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998383 10/28/15 02:13 PM
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It's no different than any other club imposed rule, ie. 8pts or better, spread restriction, etc. I'm sure if you identified a less than 13" mature buck that needed taking, it might be a pass after discussing. Your real benefit of having MLD3 is the longer season and being able to use MLD tags.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: MoBettaHuntR] #5998393 10/28/15 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: MoBettaHuntR
Originally Posted By: rifleman
How many members and how many permits? Usually when I run into leases that do that, it's bc there's more members than actual permits and it's a way to slow down them getting filled.


Good point


One lease I was on had 40 members, but we got 48 buck permits. Members were allotted 2 mgmt bucks (playing the odds people wouldn't see 2) and 1 cull (playing the odds they'd be few & far between). Then there were the 100+ doe permits. We had all the buck pefmits filled before Thanksgiving one year and about 40 doe permits that went unfilled because everyone quit hunting. Because of that a rule was made that one of the bucks had to be 4.5 & 15" wide (that's a really tall task on this place) and since then the season ends with a couple buck permits left and most doe permits filled. It was a lot better hunting and quality before the pressure increase with basically the same amount of bucks being shot most years.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: tbgascorer] #5998405 10/28/15 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: tbgascorer
I'm sure if you identified a less than 13" mature buck that needed taking, it might be a pass after discussing.

That's my thoughts as well. Get game cam pics of the mature -13" deer, show them to the biologist, and if he's truly mature I would imagine you would get a green light to shoot him


Originally Posted By: East...
Originally Posted By: East...
I will get off in a little bit

You shouldnt have said that
Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998416 10/28/15 02:31 PM
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We have 6 hunters on 650 acres. He also manages about 3000 acres of other leases that border us.

To me the point of MLD is to manage a better herd. You put in extra work in to get extra benefits. One of the benefits is to be allowed to cull certain deer despite antler restrictions in the county. I'm not looking to shoot 3.5 year old 12 inch deer and neither is anyone else. With the 4.5 year old and 13" we most likely won't fill our tags this year.

Of the 5 or so deer over 4.5 that we've studied on camera so far, 3 are so close to 13" that we'd rather pass and be safe, 1 is a high narrow 4 point, and one is a spike on one side and 4 points on the other.

I'm assuming its easier for him to make that rule for the average hunter so he doesn't have deer that shouldn't be shot killed. My plan is to send him pictures of deer that we think are good candidates but don't fit the restrictions and see if he'll give us the green light.

Either way we love the lease and with the MLD we've seen a huge increase in the number and quality of deer over the last 5 years.

Last edited by HuntinForTail; 10/28/15 02:32 PM.
Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998422 10/28/15 02:34 PM
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Having an MLD on a piece of property doesn't mean you have guys hunting that property that understand or know how to manage a whitetail herd. Restrictions are one way to accomplish a management program MLD or otherwise. Having ran and been part of MLD leases, I know all too well that it (MLD) is often an excuse to shoot deer you shouldn't especially when you have an extra tag in your pocket. I have also seen the other end of it where the LO has guys so scared to shoot anything and limits there tags if they do that it doesn't work as advertised either, so there is that too. MLD is just a tool for guys who understand how to age and manage whitetail, LO's and hunters, no more.


How come everybody I meet is a deer hunting expert?
Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: tShawnB] #5998484 10/28/15 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: tShawnB
Having an MLD on a piece of property doesn't mean you have guys hunting that property that understand or know how to manage a whitetail herd. Restrictions are one way to accomplish a management program MLD or otherwise. Having ran and been part of MLD leases, I know all too well that it (MLD) is often an excuse to shoot deer you shouldn't especially when you have an extra tag in your pocket. I have also seen the other end of it where the LO has guys so scared to shoot anything and limits there tags if they do that it doesn't work as advertised either, so there is that too. MLD is just a tool for guys who understand how to age and manage whitetail, LO's and hunters, no more.


No it's not. The Managed Lands Deer Program's primary focus is to keep deer numbers below carrying capacity for that area. This helps to maintain and improve the native habitat/forage for the benefit of all wildlife, not just deer on the property. The longer season that comes with a Type III MLD provides landowners/managers the time to harvest the right deer in the numbers needed to meet the harvest recommendations of the biologist. One must also make improvements to habitat to remain in the MLD program (i.e., controlled burns, roller chopping, plantings, etc.).

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: MoBettaHuntR] #5998488 10/28/15 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: MoBettaHuntR
Originally Posted By: rifleman
How many members and how many permits? Usually when I run into leases that do that, it's bc there's more members than actual permits and it's a way to slow down them getting filled.


Good point


Couldn't they also use their personal tags on deer?


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Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: TXHOGSLAYER] #5998489 10/28/15 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: TXHOGSLAYER
Originally Posted By: MoBettaHuntR
Originally Posted By: rifleman
How many members and how many permits? Usually when I run into leases that do that, it's bc there's more members than actual permits and it's a way to slow down them getting filled.


Good point


Couldn't they also use their personal tags on deer?


No. Only MLD tags issued by TPWD may be used on MLD properties.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: fouzman] #5998678 10/28/15 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: fouzman
Originally Posted By: tShawnB
Having an MLD on a piece of property doesn't mean you have guys hunting that property that understand or know how to manage a whitetail herd. Restrictions are one way to accomplish a management program MLD or otherwise. Having ran and been part of MLD leases, I know all too well that it (MLD) is often an excuse to shoot deer you shouldn't especially when you have an extra tag in your pocket. I have also seen the other end of it where the LO has guys so scared to shoot anything and limits there tags if they do that it doesn't work as advertised either, so there is that too. MLD is just a tool for guys who understand how to age and manage whitetail, LO's and hunters, no more.


No it's not. The Managed Lands Deer Program's primary focus is to keep deer numbers below carrying capacity for that area. This helps to maintain and improve the native habitat/forage for the benefit of all wildlife, not just deer on the property. The longer season that comes with a Type III MLD provides landowners/managers the time to harvest the right deer in the numbers needed to meet the harvest recommendations of the biologist. One must also make improvements to habitat to remain in the MLD program (i.e., controlled burns, roller chopping, plantings, etc.).
Again, as someone who has hunted multiple MLD properties and killed multiple large animals on these properties, let me assure you it is more often than not (99%) used as a TROPHY management tool and MLD tags are more often than not used as currency, much like the tags you buy in Mexico. I understand the end game with MLD; however, like antler restrictions it is flawed in the sense that a majority of these properties are looking to produce trophy caliber WT/MD bucks. The last MLD property I was on had some ignorant rules in as much as they (LO) did not want anything under 4.5 years old PERIOD to be shot assuming that even middle age 8 pointers might perhaps grow into large trophy whitetails. What you had is guys burning tags out of fear of missing out on being able to kill a trophy after they passed up these mature management type bucks early in the year, so there goes the population management aspect right there. I can also with 100% certainty tell you that the MLD rules are often bent, followed loosely, etc... just like any other government program or entity. If used correctly, MLD is a good tool to manage a deer herd and if your looking to manage for trophies, there is one way to do it and if your looking to manage population and habitat there is another way to do it. I agree both are important and should go hand in hand, but I also know from experience big bucks equals big money and the MLD tool is used in most cases to grow big bucks but in most cases is not managed or handled correctly. In closing, I no longer hunt MLD properties and will not unless the rules of said properties fit my idea of management.


How come everybody I meet is a deer hunting expert?
Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: fouzman] #5998707 10/28/15 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: fouzman
No it's not. The Managed Lands Deer Program's primary focus is to keep deer numbers below carrying capacity for that area. This helps to maintain and improve the native habitat/forage for the benefit of all wildlife, not just deer on the property. The longer season that comes with a Type III MLD provides landowners/managers the time to harvest the right deer in the numbers needed to meet the harvest recommendations of the biologist. One must also make improvements to habitat to remain in the MLD program (i.e., controlled burns, roller chopping, plantings, etc.).


You're right, the true purpose is about managing numbers. A lot of us use it to improve deer genetics though. Since it is about keeping numbers in balance, shouldn't that be more of a case to not have a 13" requirement? The ultimate goal should be to have all the tags filled by the end of the year. Correct?

This kinda has me thinking of a side question. Do timber companies get any benefit from having hunters who participate in MLD? The last 2 owners said that MLD is the only way they will lease the property for hunting.

Last edited by HuntinForTail; 10/28/15 06:05 PM.
Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: tShawnB] #5998710 10/28/15 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: tShawnB
Again, as someone who has hunted multiple MLD properties and killed multiple large animals on these properties, let me assure you it is more often than not (99%) used as a TROPHY management tool and MLD tags are more often than not used as currency, much like the tags you buy in Mexico. I understand the end game with MLD; however, like antler restrictions it is flawed in the sense that a majority of these properties are looking to produce trophy caliber WT/MD bucks. The last MLD property I was on had some ignorant rules in as much as they (LO) did not want anything under 4.5 years old PERIOD to be shot assuming that even middle age 8 pointers might perhaps grow into large trophy whitetails. What you had is guys burning tags out of fear of missing out on being able to kill a trophy after they passed up these mature management type bucks early in the year, so there goes the population management aspect right there. I can also with 100% certainty tell you that the MLD rules are often bent, followed loosely, etc... just like any other government program or entity. If used correctly, MLD is a good tool to manage a deer herd and if your looking to manage for trophies, there is one way to do it and if your looking to manage population and habitat there is another way to do it. I agree both are important and should go hand in hand, but I also know from experience big bucks equals big money and the MLD tool is used in most cases to grow big bucks but in most cases is not managed or handled correctly. In closing, I no longer hunt MLD properties and will not unless the rules of said properties fit my idea of management.


Well said. That last sentence is about the only option we all have.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998716 10/28/15 06:07 PM
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I've also been hunting MLD properties since their inception. Still have one that I manage. We use our tags to manage the deer herd. Not shoot the biggest trophy deer we can find while letting culls and does get by us. Perhaps we're in the minority but I have never hunted an MLD ranch (and I've hunted a ton of them) where balancing sex ratios, culling inferior deer and only taking a couple top-end trophies/year was the exception, rather than the rule. I did hunt with a group of six on 8,500 acres where I personally did 90% of the killing/culling because the rest of the guys were hunting a big deer. They always said they'd kill does and culls later in the season and they wouldn't. That's why I got off that place after two years.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: tShawnB] #5998724 10/28/15 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: tShawnB
Originally Posted By: fouzman
Originally Posted By: tShawnB
Having an MLD on a piece of property doesn't mean you have guys hunting that property that understand or know how to manage a whitetail herd. Restrictions are one way to accomplish a management program MLD or otherwise. Having ran and been part of MLD leases, I know all too well that it (MLD) is often an excuse to shoot deer you shouldn't especially when you have an extra tag in your pocket. I have also seen the other end of it where the LO has guys so scared to shoot anything and limits there tags if they do that it doesn't work as advertised either, so there is that too. MLD is just a tool for guys who understand how to age and manage whitetail, LO's and hunters, no more.


No it's not. The Managed Lands Deer Program's primary focus is to keep deer numbers below carrying capacity for that area. This helps to maintain and improve the native habitat/forage for the benefit of all wildlife, not just deer on the property. The longer season that comes with a Type III MLD provides landowners/managers the time to harvest the right deer in the numbers needed to meet the harvest recommendations of the biologist. One must also make improvements to habitat to remain in the MLD program (i.e., controlled burns, roller chopping, plantings, etc.).
Again, as someone who has hunted multiple MLD properties and killed multiple large animals on these properties, let me assure you it is more often than not (99%) used as a TROPHY management tool and MLD tags are more often than not used as currency, much like the tags you buy in Mexico. I understand the end game with MLD; however, like antler restrictions it is flawed in the sense that a majority of these properties are looking to produce trophy caliber WT/MD bucks. The last MLD property I was on had some ignorant rules in as much as they (LO) did not want anything under 4.5 years old PERIOD to be shot assuming that even middle age 8 pointers might perhaps grow into large trophy whitetails. What you had is guys burning tags out of fear of missing out on being able to kill a trophy after they passed up these mature management type bucks early in the year, so there goes the population management aspect right there. I can also with 100% certainty tell you that the MLD rules are often bent, followed loosely, etc... just like any other government program or entity. If used correctly, MLD is a good tool to manage a deer herd and if your looking to manage for trophies, there is one way to do it and if your looking to manage population and habitat there is another way to do it. I agree both are important and should go hand in hand, but I also know from experience big bucks equals big money and the MLD tool is used in most cases to grow big bucks but in most cases is not managed or handled correctly. In closing, I no longer hunt MLD properties and will not unless the rules of said properties fit my idea of management.


This is what I was referring to as what is the point of this MLD property and the goals of the lease members. What the states goals are and the actually utilization are usually two different things.

Sounds rough with only 5 deer over the age limit. Having managed properties(no expert on it) before it was always easier to draw the line short of the fence. If you want deer shot after 3.5 you make the rule 4.5 to adjust for bad judgment etc. Like others said talking to the biologist so he knows your level of experience should help. On any management or shared hunting land I think specifically targeted agreed upon deer are the only way to go MLD or not. This helps prevent a lot of problems. Just have to be well documented ie game cameras.


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Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998725 10/28/15 06:12 PM
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HuntinforTail, the 13" rule on your timber company land may of may not make sense. Depends on sex ratios and numbers of bucks of all age classes. If deer densities are low, majority of bucks are immature or sex ratios are skewed to the doe side, the manager may just be trying to hold as many bucks as possible until he gets overall herd in shape. Otherwise, a 13" rule on an MLD property doesn't make much sense. And yes, one of the benefits of an MLD is genetic improvement through culling and bigger deer due to better nutrition and letting them get old. It takes a long time to see the gentic improvement, though.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998731 10/28/15 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: HuntinForTail


This kinda has me thinking of a side question. Do timber companies get any benefit from having hunters who participate in MLD? The last 2 owners said that MLD is the only way they will lease the property for hunting.


This is an interesteing thread to a new guy hunting in Texas. I never really understood what the MLD zones were. I can't answer your timber land owner question but I wanted to share how this, essentially same program, is run back home in Wisconsin. The farmers up there can get damage tags to help with the deer population. The best part of these are no lease involved. If the farmer is awarded the tags from the state he has to let you hunt his property and give you a tag. I dont think they get any other benefits from this other than their crops not being eaten up. Sorry a bit off topic but wanted to share


Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998733 10/28/15 06:19 PM
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we have a 15 in rule 8pt or more. we can kill all the spikes we want


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Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: jsplinter] #5998749 10/28/15 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: jsplinter
Originally Posted By: HuntinForTail


This kinda has me thinking of a side question. Do timber companies get any benefit from having hunters who participate in MLD? The last 2 owners said that MLD is the only way they will lease the property for hunting.


This is an interesteing thread to a new guy hunting in Texas. I never really understood what the MLD zones were. I can't answer your timber land owner question but I wanted to share how this, essentially same program, is run back home in Wisconsin. The farmers up there can get damage tags to help with the deer population. The best part of these are no lease involved. If the farmer is awarded the tags from the state he has to let you hunt his property and give you a tag. I dont think they get any other benefits from this other than their crops not being eaten up. Sorry a bit off topic but wanted to share


Here is a related link you can also read on TPWD website on MLD permits but this is regurgitated from there and include benefits.

I think for the timber company it would be habitat restoration/ improvements that help with requirements they probably have to meet. I do not know much about the timber industry so just speculating.


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Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998750 10/28/15 06:29 PM
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Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: fouzman] #5998790 10/28/15 07:02 PM
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fouzman, that makes a lot of sense thanks. That may be exactly why hes doing this. We have seen more and more deer every year and actually are seeing decent bucks and bucks in the mature range. 5 years ago that was rare.

Re: MLD 3 Lease with Antler Restrictions?! [Re: HuntinForTail] #5998896 10/28/15 08:06 PM
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MLD was implemented as a short term way for LO to put his property into the program to control numbers and get the population to CC. It was more for short term use, not long term as it has now turned in to. A few still use it now days to start season early killing trophies and increasing income instead of management. Many use it for management of the whole herd. Is still up to the LO to allow MLD and if he decides to set his own harvest guidelines. In the end if, if his program has a management plan in place and is being reviewed to show his following the plan then he can stay in the MLD program( or that is the way it was supposed to be).


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