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yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. #5990870 10/23/15 07:57 PM
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Hi yall, i want to start off by saying that this is clearly an idea only.

We have 850 ac HF ranch with lodge in Jim Hogg, about 45 min south of hebbronville. Some members have hunted oryx with me there. It has lots of potential to be a fantastic place.

I want to see if there is any interest or input pros and cons for this idea. Ranch was primarily used for exotics with some non native whitetail genetics brought in. There is low number of wt for the place. What i propose is a long term 7yr to 10yr minimum lease where a small group of hunters that hunt together are given 1 oryx every year we have a sustainable herd and half the lease money goes toward stocking the ranch with quality wt, not record deer but very respectable wt genetics. Obviously all this would be spelled out clear as day in contract.

Its kinda like leasing a ranch in my head. There would be specific management practices in place that would ensure highest chance for establishing a solid herd of wt.

I know some of yalls initial inpression might be im trying to get something on someone elses dime, but thats why im asking for yalls opinion. Thats not what im trying to do. What could i add or take away from the idea that would be a win win for the family and potential lessees. Im not 100% sure its a good idea, just a thought that came to me.

Thanks for your time!

Last edited by jorge; 10/23/15 07:57 PM.

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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5990900 10/23/15 08:13 PM
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I think the idea has some promise to it. Just to clarify:

-The lease members would each get 1 oryx per year, in addition to being able to hunt Whitetail (typical allotment: a couple does, 1 cull, 1 Trophy)?

-Then, you would use some of the lease money to bring in additional deer to the ranch that the hunters would not hunt?

I don't think there is anything wrong with using lease revenue to try to improve the ranch. If done right it is a win-win for all sides.

Before you launched it I would think through how many actual deer you will want harvested each year, and how many guns you want taking them. Also think through what type of access the lease hunters would have to the lodge and house.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5990931 10/23/15 08:39 PM
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I think its workable, with a few tweaks, but the real concern I would have is signing a 7 - 10 year lease with folks you do not know....and finding folks that do not know you that are willing to sign a 7 - 10 year lease. All the folks that I know with long term leases (both on the landowner and hunter sides) only went long term after several years of annual leases, to build trust and make sure everyone was playing nice together.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5990935 10/23/15 08:41 PM
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Thanks txag, yes each lessee would get 1 oryx. Might be a cow might be a bull depending on ratio and maturity. By my count this is sustainabke for 3-4 hunters for 4-5 years. There are also some fallow and aoudad which can be substituted. Then a break to let mature oryx numbers build back up. the wt i see 1 mature shooter and 1 doe, with culls wide open to ensure money invested in herd isnt getting wasted/diluted by non favorable genetics. Possibly more than 1 buck and 1 doe as things are evaluated further. Ideally, my goal is for lessees and family to work together to have year in year out 1 trophy 160+, 1 mgmt 120-, and tag out on does and spikes. Full disclosure biggest bucks are probably 140ish. Now that the ranch land has been divided, and only my immediate family has access or say in the ranch the poor management practices have ceased to stop. The lodge sleeps 10, and all other amenities will be for the hunters, then family 2nd. Also, myself and 1 other family member who are avid hunters would frequent but only to help culling and do maintenance, we'd share a blind. I view this as a business and dont want to jeopardize a win win relationship with the right lessees. family only uses it sparingly for a few select family holiday get togethers all out of season like easter is a major one. Yes, the wt brought in will be on the table to shoot but not immediately, as i would like those genetics to reach every corner of the ranch, hence the long term deal. Ideally i would like staggered age ranges, so that the lessees can see a return on investment as quickly as possible. I want to avoid a scenario where someone says "ok in 5 years im off and i just wasted my time, effort, and money." I want where family and lessees have equitable skin in the game.

I conpletely agree its tough having trust go both ways, but there would be monetary penalties both ways to ensure everyone stayed inline. Maybe thats a little optimistic, but i think there are some great people out there on this forum, id take a chance like this with.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5990953 10/23/15 08:48 PM
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Who would pay for the protein if it is required to be fed? Who would put it out? Who pays the utilities on the lodge? Year round usage? Bird hunting? Any cattle on the place? Road maintenance? Who sets harvest quotas and call what buck a cull/management/trophy? I have seen a few place do this and it work out great. Get the wrong group and it is a total train wreck. I met 2 guys who were from Houston looking for something like this.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5991004 10/23/15 09:11 PM
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I go down there alot and the other family member that would hunt lives 45 min away. So we would help out as much as possible feeding and keep the maintenance up. Utilities would be paid by us. Yes year round usage, but there are a couple of out of season holidays where entire family meets at ranch. Feed/protein hunters except for the one family blind. Harvest quotas and sizes would be set by me but i want input from hunters so that things dont get crossways. Dove would be included, and id consider quail, but i dont want that to distract from main goal of bettering wt herd. Id need references like any other land owner from previous land owners. And id let prospective hunters tour the place for the weekend. There is about 15-20 head of cattle for ag exemption. Also if one of these guys had a dream of breeding, pens and water are already in place close to lodge, and that would be on the table too.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5991035 10/23/15 09:31 PM
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I don't know how many people are going to want to take an oryx every year for 7-10 years. I think you'd be better off just selling oryx hunts and using that money to fund your WT initiative. I don't think mixing lease hunters and family is a good idea, either. Either lease it out with your restrictions and leave family out of it, or keep it for the family and just do periodic hunts/weekend hunts that you have control over.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #5991160 10/23/15 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
I don't know how many people are going to want to take an oryx every year for 7-10 years. I think you'd be better off just selling oryx hunts and using that money to fund your WT initiative. I don't think mixing lease hunters and family is a good idea, either. Either lease it out with your restrictions and leave family out of it, or keep it for the family and just do periodic hunts/weekend hunts that you have control over.
You have some very good points there.

Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #5991182 10/23/15 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
I don't know how many people are going to want to take an oryx every year for 7-10 years. I think you'd be better off just selling oryx hunts and using that money to fund your WT initiative. I don't think mixing lease hunters and family is a good idea, either. Either lease it out with your restrictions and leave family out of it, or keep it for the family and just do periodic hunts/weekend hunts that you have control over.


This^^^^


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: don k] #5991203 10/23/15 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: don k
Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
I don't know how many people are going to want to take an oryx every year for 7-10 years. I think you'd be better off just selling oryx hunts and using that money to fund your WT initiative. I don't think mixing lease hunters and family is a good idea, either. Either lease it out with your restrictions and leave family out of it, or keep it for the family and just do periodic hunts/weekend hunts that you have control over.
You have some very good points there.


Amen. typical statement "hunter #1-I'm sorta POed at that Jorge character, let's his nephew come in and shoot the biggest buck on the place. hunter #2-yeah, and when we were here two weeks ago those nieces had some friends a drinking and shooting all night long" My suggestion might include going back to a post that was running about 2-4 months ago about what upset hunters about other hunters and land owners. Read that and be prepared to eliminate all complaints for a 7-10 year lease.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5992984 10/25/15 07:51 AM
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oryx wouldnt be taken for 7-10 year unless it was wanted, its there to add value. A break from oryx would happen at year 4 or 5 to let younger oryx reach maturity. As it stands there is a maturity gap of about 3 yrs in the herd. There are other exotics on the ranch as well that would be on the table. I do think wt will always be the main item on a hunters year in year out list, especially here in tx.

I do see the validity and concern mixing family and hunters, hence the contractual recourse and stiff penalties would be implemented to both parties for breaking contractual stipulations.

I guess im being on the side of overly optimistic of the scenario. What i envision is a out of the box situation. Where lessees who dont have the means or desire to go buy their own acreage and invest in improving genetics could form a partnership with an individual that has acreage and wants to achieve like results.

Thank you fellas, Yall bring up some very good points and major obstacles from the other side of the table with objectivity.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5993530 10/25/15 07:24 PM
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I would not lease it for long term the first year, but more of a year to year to feel each other out and to iron on details of what will work like posted above. I would not think you will get the money you can for the long term lease with family involved in the hunting inside the HF. I have seen many deal and long term deal go south when family is allowed to hunt on the same lease as the lease hunters.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5993549 10/25/15 07:41 PM
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^^^ Once again, Amen


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5993686 10/25/15 09:15 PM
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So yall think a $5k recourse clause is insufficient for an infraction of contract?


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5993778 10/25/15 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: jorge
So yall think a $5k recourse clause is insufficient for an infraction of contract?


1) I may have missed it but what annual price are you looking at....I would base it on some percentage of that.

2) I think this could be a good deal for the right people....finding the right people is gonna be the trick. You might even consider a "corporate" lease where a company can bring in high-end customers to relax/hunt....this would give you a situation where company executives can entertain and where the money might be better.....that would address the annual oryx issue....contracts should be more enforceable against a company vs. a group of individuals....something to think about..... 2cents


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5993898 10/25/15 11:12 PM
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Thanks snake thats good food for thought.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5993913 10/25/15 11:21 PM
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Why would I sign a long lease? Is your rate below average? What happens if I get laid off? What happens if someone turns into a jerk?

If it's a good deal people will stay year over year

Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: SnakeWrangler] #5993932 10/25/15 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: SnakeWrangler
Originally Posted By: jorge
So yall think a $5k recourse clause is insufficient for an infraction of contract?


1) I may have missed it but what annual price are you looking at....I would base it on some percentage of that.

2) I think this could be a good deal for the right people....finding the right people is gonna be the trick. You might even consider a "corporate" lease where a company can bring in high-end customers to relax/hunt....this would give you a situation where company executives can entertain and where the money might be better.....that would address the annual oryx issue....contracts should be more enforceable against a company vs. a group of individuals....something to think about..... 2cents


I would advise against a corporate lease. I've guided for several and when you get customers out that don't hunt at all but "want to try it" they'll kill anything that walks up. You can explain all the game management you want to but they'll pull the trigger every time on a 2 1/2 year old 10 point. They're customers, what're you going to say. When I was in high school many years ago I put hunters out on a 100K acre place in Terrel county and they knew what we wanted them to shoot. It was written on the wall next to the dinner table and discussed before they got there. We didn't even ask them to age the deer just don't shoot an 8 point or less. The babies that died were unbelievable and wounded deer were common. The sad thing is most of these customers grew up in West Texas. They just didn't care. If the ranch wasn't so big it would've been shot out in no time.

Last edited by scalebuster; 10/25/15 11:31 PM.
Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: Cleric] #5994382 10/26/15 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: Cleric
Why would I sign a long lease? Is your rate below average? What happens if I get laid off? What happens if someone turns into a jerk?

If it's a good deal people will stay year over year


I see several reasons why a long term lease can be worthwhile. 1.) Not a lot of good leases these days. 2.) Having the ability to develop the lease where the land owner is contributing just as much to improve wildlife. 3.) The opportunity to have a place to hunt that you dont have to worry about getting the boot if more money comes along. 4.) Having a lease with guaranteed opportunity to take exotics. 5.) Long term to me if all things were good is insurance someone cant/wont boot you off especially if there is a substantial monetary consequence for that.

If you think youll get laid off this probably isnt for you, but with that said im looking at this as purely a business deal and would do all i can and would want the lessee to do all they can to find a replacement or work out a deferral till that person can be part of it. It would be bad business to get rid of the right person on acct of the money solely. There is so much more to a lease agreement than the money.

To be honest im not sure how much this idea is worth open market, and would need to do some comparative analysis to see what would be a square deal.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5994986 10/26/15 04:32 PM
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Get rid of the Oryx and make it a WT ranch.


How come everybody I meet is a deer hunting expert?
Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5995061 10/26/15 05:29 PM
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Yeah i wont get rid of the oryx, they are a non competing species with the wt. And besides, if this doesnt ever materialize exotics offer a year round cash flow, which has many benefits.

Last edited by jorge; 10/26/15 05:30 PM.

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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5995078 10/26/15 05:43 PM
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I would try to find some type of corporate to take it for a lease. Kind of hard to find and get done, but good luck with what you choose.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5995155 10/26/15 06:37 PM
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Anyone been involved with corporate leases please chime in.

I imagine some ppl reading or that have posted might get the impression im being dense or stubborn. First, i appreciate yalls insight and conments. I take em to heart, but its in my nature and lack of experience why this wont work when i see trememdous upside potential and mitigatable downside potential.

My take on the situation is pretty simple, maybe too simple. If all known variables are laid out and addressed contractually the only hard part is find the right ppl. I think the heavy monetary penalties for breaking the contract keeps both very honest and toeing the line. I for one aint going to risk a $5k+ infraction. It does no good imo to have a lease agreement that isnt severe to the point that it mitigates. If you have a lease agreement and the worst is you get the boot imo its pretty week. And most wont pay the attorney fees to fight and most honest attorneys will say its not worth in many situations. But having a legal and binding contract to go after someone for the equity put in that sure as heck imo keeps everyone honest and mitigates.


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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5995857 10/27/15 01:59 AM
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I would look for a small to mid-size company with executives that hunt....very well defined rules, expectations, and penalties for infractions..."guests" must be guided by members and not just left in stands to make own shooting decisions, etc...

Owners of a machine shop...manufacturing company....auto dealership....law firm partners....doctors from a medical practice.....NOT large corporations IMHO....

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Re: yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch. [Re: jorge] #5995867 10/27/15 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: jorge
Anyone been involved with corporate leases please chime in.

I imagine some ppl reading or that have posted might get the impression im being dense or stubborn. First, i appreciate yalls insight and conments. I take em to heart, but its in my nature and lack of experience why this wont work when i see trememdous upside potential and mitigatable downside potential.

My take on the situation is pretty simple, maybe too simple. If all known variables are laid out and addressed contractually the only hard part is find the right ppl. I think the heavy monetary penalties for breaking the contract keeps both very honest and toeing the line. I for one aint going to risk a $5k+ infraction. It does no good imo to have a lease agreement that isnt severe to the point that it mitigates. If you have a lease agreement and the worst is you get the boot imo its pretty week. And most wont pay the attorney fees to fight and most honest attorneys will say its not worth in many situations. But having a legal and binding contract to go after someone for the equity put in that sure as heck imo keeps everyone honest and mitigates.


You would be shocked what some will pay monetarily for an infraction when they see something they want.


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