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What is the threshold of speed.... #5963409 10/06/15 12:10 PM
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txtrophy85 Offline OP
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That a deer can duck/ step away from an arrow at normal hunting ranges?

300 fps? 320 fps?


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963462 10/06/15 12:48 PM
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Do not think there is bow fast enough that it cannot happen. 330 is too slow, have seen that happen and that was with a bow that runs that across a chronograph not just IBO.


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963466 10/06/15 12:50 PM
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There has to be a POR though


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963470 10/06/15 12:53 PM
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True, but does any bow reach it?


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963483 10/06/15 01:02 PM
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1,126 feet per second. The speed of sound.

Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: fouzman] #5963485 10/06/15 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: fouzman
1,126 feet per second. The speed of sound.


I doubt a deer could duck an object moving 500 or more fps.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963488 10/06/15 01:06 PM
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Ok, so you just answered your own question, 500 fps. I shot recurve and compound bows until my late 20's. Don't hunt with them though. I like fine rifles too much.

Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963523 10/06/15 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: txtrophy85
Originally Posted By: fouzman
1,126 feet per second. The speed of sound.


I doubt a deer could duck an object moving 500 or more fps.



At bow ranges you are probably good at 500fps, now what bow can do that?


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963535 10/06/15 01:40 PM
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Shouldt be too hard to figure out. Peoples reaction times have been measured seems like you could measure deer's reaction times as well. I agree it would be slower than the speed of sound. A lot of pistol bullets out there are slower than 1000 fps


It's hell eatin em live
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963584 10/06/15 02:07 PM
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Lots of variables here, but @ 300 fps I don't think deer can move COMPLETELY out of the way of impact. There is no doubt some deer are moving as the arrow hits them, but even a deer on high alert won't move enough for a miss assuming the shot placement (lung area) is good. I'll say this is true within 20 yards or so IMHO



Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963590 10/06/15 02:11 PM
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My buddies talk mess about my loud Bowtech. I tell them what I think goes through the deer's mind as I release "oh crap you hear that Bowtech? Which direction is it coming from?" Too late as the arrow has just passed through him.



Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963594 10/06/15 02:14 PM
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^^^^
20 yards I agree, 40 yards, have had clean miss which hit tree limb that was blocked from vision by the lung area.


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: titan2232] #5963633 10/06/15 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: titan2232
My buddies talk mess about my loud Bowtech. I tell them what I think goes through the deer's mind as I release "oh crap you hear that Bowtech? Which direction is it coming from?" Too late as the arrow has just passed through him.

Not all Bowtechs are loud. I shoot the new 360 and had two Mathews guys on my lease commenting how they thought it was more quiet than their bows. I have seen most deer I have shot at attempt to duck the arrow. I have started concentrating on shooting lower in attempting to curb this problem. I don't think archery equipment will ever be fast enough to keep them from ducking an arrow but every little bit helps.

Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963759 10/06/15 03:50 PM
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My Bowtech Assassin is shooting 300+ with heavy FMJ's and I've never had a whitetail come close to "ducking". My bow is def on the loud side though.



Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: fouzman] #5963760 10/06/15 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: fouzman
Ok, so you just answered your own question, 500 fps. I shot recurve and compound bows until my late 20's. Don't hunt with them though. I like fine rifles too much.



no but that's less than half the speed of sound and I don't think they could duck that.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963854 10/06/15 04:37 PM
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My bow is not quiet and probably not the fastest in the world. Never seen a deer duck an arrow. I limit my shots to 25 yards.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5963885 10/06/15 04:46 PM
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fast forward to about 3:00

This is at 20yrds max and runnin about 300. slow it down and watch how much she drops


Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5964087 10/06/15 06:46 PM
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I didn't see much drop in that doe. That arrow didn't penetrate much for a 300 fps bow either. Maybe the broadhead or hit a shoulder confused2



Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5964090 10/06/15 06:47 PM
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Looked like pretty good placement to me



Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5964439 10/06/15 09:38 PM
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ok, just doing some math in my head (haha, needed a calculator to do this)

at 30 yards, time for 275 fps to hit is 0.31 sec; 350fps arrow to hit target is .25 sec; and 500 fps is 0.18 sec (assuming no deceleration, which we know there is some)

At 20 yards, 275 fps 0.21 sec; 350 fps 0.17 sec; at 500 fps 0.12 sec.

At 10 yards, 275 fps 0.11 sec; 350 fps 0.085 sec; at 500 fps 0.06 sec.

So the speed needed to avoid the duck totally depends on the distance to hit, as we all intuitively knew.

Now looking at gun speeds and ranges, never seen a deer duck my 30-06 at 100 yards, so I will use that.

at 2800 fps and 100 yards, time to target is 0.10 sec.; same bullet at 200 yards is 0.21 sec (assuming no decel, which we know exists in bullets too), but never have seen a deer duck a 200 yard shot either.

So I think it is safe to assume a shot less than 0.2 sec would result in a clean hit without ducking...now all you have to do is figure the fps you are shooting and the distance required to give the clean shot...


if it were only that simple hammer

Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: Navasot] #5964511 10/06/15 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: Navasot
fast forward to about 3:00


I slowed it down and went through it as closely as I could and it looks like the doe drops, but it is after the arrow is sticking in her...she drops down with the arrow in her shoulder. Looks like it hit a thick bone, shouldn't have been shoulder blade but maybe a thick rib or something. But the doe didn't duck your shot at all, she reacted after the shot hit her. Here is a sequence of crappy cell phone pics I took of the video showing how much she ducked vs how she stood still:
before the shot


right at shot, you can see the arrow as a blur by the tree almost even with the trail cam


a little further into shot and doe hasn't moved an inch yet, arrow is about to hit her, seen as a smudge in the grass above her (very difficult to see and I apologize I couldn't edit this one to show the arrow)


Doe hit, as seen by the dot just behind her shoulder, you can see she hasn't hardly moved yet


Now she feels the sting and has ducked with the arrow in her

Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5964513 10/06/15 10:09 PM
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sorry for the crappy pics...I could get about 3 play/pause clicks per second to slow it down as much as possible...

I would guess the timing of the duck is probably right around 0.25-0.3 seconds...based on this video

Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: titan2232] #5965058 10/07/15 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: titan2232
Lots of variables here, but @ 300 fps I don't think deer can move COMPLETELY out of the way of impact. There is no doubt some deer are moving as the arrow hits them, but even a deer on high alert won't move enough for a miss assuming the shot placement (lung area) is good. I'll say this is true within 20 yards or so IMHO


Agree I have never seen a deer jump that string when shooting over 300fps. Maybe a inch at 30 yards but that's it.

Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5965143 10/07/15 02:29 AM
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Yeah, after doing some math and reviewing the video posted above and thinking it through, if a deer can duck a 300fps arrow at 25-30 yards, a deer should be able to duck a 200 yard gun shot. We never hear rifle shooters talk about deer ducking their shots, so I am becoming more convinced a ducked shot is either a well
Placed shot the deer gets hit by, or a poorly shot arrow due to deer fever (can not blame anyone there as I get the shakes when I even see deer). In the video above it appears the shot was well placed but it just got unlucky poor penetration.

Now a deer ducking a 70-100 yard arrow shot is a different ballgame. But I don't hear about those kind of shots except on tv

Last edited by Texas buckeye; 10/07/15 02:35 AM.
Re: What is the threshold of speed.... [Re: txtrophy85] #5965202 10/07/15 02:52 AM
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Well the first deer I come across that does duck my arrow, well he can live.

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