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How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? #5627269 03/01/15 02:36 AM
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Throughout the years, I have hunted areas in Texas that seemed to have a few deer with less desirable headgear that couldn't be culled out. Seems like whenever these bucks were culled out, somewhere down the line, another one would pop up. The bucks that I'm talking about are the 3yr old 6pts and bucks with a real weak side. No matter how hard we've tried to get these guys out of the herd, they just keep coming back. One season, I killed a 154" basic 6pt with 6 irregular tines coming off his beams. A friend of mine found a set of 6pt sheds from a buck that I was hunting that would easily gross 130. This 6pt genetic seems like it's pretty strong in the herd. On another lease, I have witnessed and killed some bucks that would have a real nice 5x side and the other side would have a G1 and G2 then a long slick beam. Several of this style deer have been killed on this place, and it's always on the same beam. If you have dealt with this, gimme a shout. bang

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5627280 03/01/15 02:42 AM
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Never really seen much of straight 6 pt(3x3) gene that stayed in the herd after deer numbers were reduced and nutrition increased to remaining deer. Not saying it can't be a dominate antler trait just never seen stay when numbers management was started. The other bucks that were lopsided in antler (4x2 or 5x2 or 5x3) were more injury related IME. They either correct themselves over time or stay that way the rest of their lives.



Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman] #5627599 03/01/15 06:05 AM
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You cannot significantly impact genetics by culling. How do you know which does are carrying that gene??


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Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5627690 03/01/15 12:54 PM
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That's true, those does don't have head gear to give us a clue. Kind of like that time I was putting big female bass in a pond. My friend said I needed to put some big Florida males too. The gene thang goes for both of them. I have killed a few injured bucks that had some irregular growth on one side, but those slick beamers I mentioned have all been killed within a quarter of a mile. That big six I was hunting got killed a few years later, and if a six point can go down hill, he had lost a lot of mass and tine length. He was sway backed and pot bellyed. That means he got a lot of breading in errrrrr. I didn't spend a lot of time hunting him, but I should have. I kept thinking he got shot, but that ol dog kept making brief appearances with the locals.

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: therancher] #5627694 03/01/15 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
You cannot significantly impact genetics by culling. How do you know which does are carrying that gene??


X's 2, that is the "catchall", I think most don't consider.


Die young,,,,as old as you can....

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Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: Western] #5627711 03/01/15 01:26 PM
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X3 on the doe comments. Would think you would need to take out all of the older does and keep on taking any buck you see that has that trait as well. Not something you can correct In just a few years.

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5627743 03/01/15 02:05 PM
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This is from a Genetics Symposium at Texas A&M back in 1998. It has some interesting studies and papers that were reported on. Scroll down to the "THE ROLE OF GENETICS IN WHITE-TAILED DEER MANAGEMENT" by JEREMY F. TAYLOR on pages 99-103(PDF pages 105-109). It was a very interesting presentation that changed my thoughts on culling and management of deer from that day forward. This is key to why I changed my culling and management practices-" These four things are: 1) heritability, 2) the amount of variation you have in the population, 3) the intensity with which you select individuals, and 4) the generation interval, which is primarily determined by the culling rate. A very important thing to note at this point is that heritability is not the only factor that dictates the rate at which you can change a population by selection" were covered in this presentation.
This is the second to the last paragraph in the presentation- "The more genetic progress you are making, the better are the younger individuals in the population. Even though these individuals have small antlers because they are young, genetically they have the potential to have much larger antlers when they are 4.5 years of age, than do the 4.5 year old males that are currently in the population. Consequently, hunting the existing 4.5 year old bucks in the population is desirable in the sense that it allows the genetically superior and younger males to breed the females. This strategy will help maximize the intensity of selection in males and therefore increase response to selection."

http://texnat.tamu.edu/files/2010/09/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdition.pdf



Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5627751 03/01/15 02:09 PM
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So STX, quit chut'n spikes grin


Die young,,,,as old as you can....

Friends don't let Friends drink and post.......

The first 5 day's after the weekend, are the hardest....

Dennis

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman] #5627922 03/01/15 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
This is from a Genetics Symposium at Texas A&M back in 1998. It has some interesting studies and papers that were reported on. Scroll down to the "THE ROLE OF GENETICS IN WHITE-TAILED DEER MANAGEMENT" by JEREMY F. TAYLOR on pages 99-103(PDF pages 105-109). It was a very interesting presentation that changed my thoughts on culling and management of deer from that day forward. This is key to why I changed my culling and management practices-" These four things are: 1) heritability, 2) the amount of variation you have in the population, 3) the intensity with which you select individuals, and 4) the generation interval, which is primarily determined by the culling rate. A very important thing to note at this point is that heritability is not the only factor that dictates the rate at which you can change a population by selection" were covered in this presentation.
This is the second to the last paragraph in the presentation- "The more genetic progress you are making, the better are the younger individuals in the population. Even though these individuals have small antlers because they are young, genetically they have the potential to have much larger antlers when they are 4.5 years of age, than do the 4.5 year old males that are currently in the population. Consequently, hunting the existing 4.5 year old bucks in the population is desirable in the sense that it allows the genetically superior and younger males to breed the females. This strategy will help maximize the intensity of selection in males and therefore increase response to selection."

http://texnat.tamu.edu/files/2010/09/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdition.pdf



And that exactly refutes the AR plan the state uses. It protects the bad genes, the 6 points (which biologists say is dominant), and the unknown. It allows you to only kill the good ones.

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5628441 03/01/15 08:14 PM
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That's all a little confusing, but I do see a point. I'm the only person I know that passes up a 4.5 year old bucks in east Texas, but not always. If I'm in a situation where I think he will make it and he is not exactly what I'm looking for I will pass him if he looks like he is good for the herd or I feel like I can kill a bigger one. Sometimes I will pass up a 4.5 year old buck with potential to hunt an old cull buck that needs to be taken out. And it seems like when I pass them up 75% percent of the time they come up missing or somebody else kills them. On rare occasions I'm lucky enough to see the buck in the next season or two. I don't enjoy killing anything under the 4.5 age. That's normally when I take the kid, wife, or a friend that's just really happy to get a hunt in. And yes I do take a friend now and then to a big buck hole, but they rarely pull it of. Hey, what kind I say it takes time. Speaking of the dominate 6 point. I have a friend that shot an old bruiser 6 point. He went to the truck to get a good tracking light and when he found his buck laying on the ground there was a 150 inch ten point pronging the hell out of it, even though it was dead on the ground. Now you no that 6 point had to of been bullying every buck in the area for this to happen. It was the 10 points chance for some form of payback. He said there was dirt pushed all around the 6 where he had been moved by the 10. This culling can be tricky.

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman] #5628473 03/01/15 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Never really seen much of straight 6 pt(3x3) gene that stayed in the herd after deer numbers were reduced and nutrition increased to remaining deer. Not saying it can't be a dominate antler trait just never seen stay when numbers management was started. The other bucks that were lopsided in antler (4x2 or 5x2 or 5x3) were more injury related IME. They either correct themselves over time or stay that way the rest of their lives.


Been my experience on the mainframes as well.

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: rifleman] #5628589 03/01/15 09:26 PM
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My response was based on the fact that the OP is a low fence only hunter. I don't think there have been any low fence ranches that have proven to be "manageable" in terms of culling to significantly influence antler charactoristics.

In fact most large high fenced ranches using only culling to improve genetics are gonna take more than a human lifetime to acheive significant results.

Age and nutrition are his best bets for improvement.

Last edited by therancher; 03/01/15 09:27 PM.

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Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5628644 03/01/15 09:54 PM
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I have one that's lost points with age and nutrition while everything else has gotten bigger. (I mean not hard to go from 8 as a young'un to 6pt the last 2 years with great growing seasons)


...and fully understand it's not the norm.

Last edited by rifleman; 03/01/15 09:55 PM.
Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5628695 03/01/15 10:21 PM
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It's a low fence topic. That's all I've ever hunted. I can believe that It could be impossible to clear out the funky beamed bucks for good. There's no telling how long the herd has been there in the first place. Might be unbeatable.

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: rifleman] #5628771 03/01/15 10:57 PM
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No doubt there are exceptions to all rules. I have a buck that at 3 (I think because they are all native in Uvalde) was a perfect 4 on one side, but had an extra main beam tine (7") coming out of the inside beam and on the same side had a 4" dagger pointing down over his eye.

I know it's the same deer because he has perfect matching round white spots on his neck. He's now 7 yo and has never been more than an average symmetrical 8.


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Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5628777 03/01/15 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: REALKILLER
It's a low fence topic. That's all I've ever hunted. I can believe that It could be impossible to clear out the funky beamed bucks for good. There's no telling how long the herd has been there in the first place. Might be unbeatable.


How many buck tags do you have? How much land are you hunting? What is the deer density? Are you able to kill all the does carrying that gene? How do you keep neighboring deer out of your hunting area? Do you always see the same bucks even during the rut?

When you answer those questions you'll understand the futility of trying to "cull to manage" a free range herd.


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Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: therancher] #5628947 03/02/15 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
My response was based on the fact that the OP is a low fence only hunter. I don't think there have been any low fence ranches that have proven to be "manageable" in terms of culling to significantly influence antler charactoristics.

In fact most large high fenced ranches using only culling to improve genetics are gonna take more than a human lifetime to acheive significant results.

Age and nutrition are his best bets for improvement.

There is a LF ranch not to far from your ranch in South Texas that has made a tremendous difference in the over all herd quality with culling.



Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: therancher] #5628952 03/02/15 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
No doubt there are exceptions to all rules. I have a buck that at 3 (I think because they are all native in Uvalde) was a perfect 4 on one side, but had an extra main beam tine (7") coming out of the inside beam and on the same side had a 4" dagger pointing down over his eye.

I know it's the same deer because he has perfect matching round white spots on his neck. He's now 7 yo and has never been more than an average symmetrical 8.


I know which deer I'm looking at from ears notching, cape & beams...I refuse to let stx have any satisfaction from knowing what deer it was from '12.

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman] #5629047 03/02/15 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: therancher
My response was based on the fact that the OP is a low fence only hunter. I don't think there have been any low fence ranches that have proven to be "manageable" in terms of culling to significantly influence antler charactoristics.

In fact most large high fenced ranches using only culling to improve genetics are gonna take more than a human lifetime to acheive significant results.

Age and nutrition are his best bets for improvement.

There is a LF ranch not to far from your ranch in South Texas that has made a tremendous difference in the over all herd quality with culling.


And I would argue that it's age structure and nutrition. And I believe current data supports my theory.

Back in '98 they thought butter was bad for ya!


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Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: therancher] #5629055 03/02/15 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: therancher
My response was based on the fact that the OP is a low fence only hunter. I don't think there have been any low fence ranches that have proven to be "manageable" in terms of culling to significantly influence antler charactoristics.

In fact most large high fenced ranches using only culling to improve genetics are gonna take more than a human lifetime to acheive significant results.

Age and nutrition are his best bets for improvement.

There is a LF ranch not to far from your ranch in South Texas that has made a tremendous difference in the over all herd quality with culling.


And I would argue that it's age structure and nutrition. And I believe current data supports my theory.

Back in '98 they thought butter was bad for ya!

They had age structure before they started a heavy culling program. Were not feeding protein or food plots.



Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER] #5629068 03/02/15 01:05 AM
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I never notched an ear before, but one season I shot a real wide buck with some very long curled brow tines and his beams went almost straight out. It was the first and last time I used ballistic silver tip bullets. I feel like the bullets zipped right through him without expanding, and I lost him. Now I know this sounds impossible, but the next season I killed the same buck within 100 yrds of where I shot him the season before. His rack had the same identical traits as the previous season, but he took on some non typical points, and palmation. He was five when I killed him. I've killed bucks with broad heads, bullets, and bullet holes before, so I'm a believer in the tuff buck thang. He was an awesome east Texas buck at 167 inches.

Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman] #5629070 03/02/15 01:06 AM
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I'd have to see the data. I don't believe there are any studies that prove that. Not saying they haven't seen improvement in desired antler characteristics.

But no way do I believe it was a genetic shift due to heavy culling.


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Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: therancher] #5629079 03/02/15 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
I'd have to see the data. I don't believe there are any studies that prove that. Not saying they haven't seen improvement in desired antler characteristics.

But no way do I believe it was a genetic shift due to heavy culling.

Chaparossa Ranch. They will have the data and the deer in the "Book" to prove it from before to after culling. Those who have been on the ranch to see will know what it looked like before culling around '97 till today.



Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman] #5629084 03/02/15 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: therancher
My response was based on the fact that the OP is a low fence only hunter. I don't think there have been any low fence ranches that have proven to be "manageable" in terms of culling to significantly influence antler charactoristics.

In fact most large high fenced ranches using only culling to improve genetics are gonna take more than a human lifetime to acheive significant results.

Age and nutrition are his best bets for improvement.

There is a LF ranch not to far from your ranch in South Texas that has made a tremendous difference in the over all herd quality with culling.


And I would argue that it's age structure and nutrition. And I believe current data supports my theory.

Back in '98 they thought butter was bad for ya!

They had age structure before they started a heavy culling program. Were not feeding protein or food plots.


Agreed, problem we have is GETTING people to cull..SHOOT bang


Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman] #5629096 03/02/15 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: therancher
I'd have to see the data. I don't believe there are any studies that prove that. Not saying they haven't seen improvement in desired antler characteristics.

But no way do I believe it was a genetic shift due to heavy culling.

Chaparossa Ranch. They will have the data and the deer in the "Book" to prove it from before to after culling. Those who have been on the ranch to see will know what it looked like before culling around '97 till today.


Know all about the chap and don't believe anything about genetics has been changed. I don't think scientifically that can be proven either.

Not arguing with production at all. Just the cause.


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