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Disclosure of vender relationships? #5606638 02/18/15 08:31 PM
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Rockfish Dave Offline OP
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So I see allot of recommendations here and there, where forum members or product reviewers push particular brands and only later (if ever) it is made known that they might have a vested interest in pushing brand x over other alternatives.

I'm curious what others feelings are on the subject and if those relationships (free gear, reseller, brother owns the company, etc) should be made known so that the reader can factor that into the motivation behind any opinions (either pro or con)? I know that may not be very realistic since it would be on the individuals honor to be honest, but just thinking and wondering if I'm the only one that wonders about this.


Last edited by Rockfish Dave; 02/18/15 08:33 PM.
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5606781 02/18/15 09:28 PM
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I havnt ever noticed any thf'ers doing this. Thoae that have businesses nearly always have them in their signature.


The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference. -George Washington
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Tff caribou] #5606820 02/18/15 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tff caribou
I havnt ever noticed any thf'ers doing this. Thoae that have businesses nearly always have them in their signature.


I have seen a few members push products and it appeared that they had some kind of vested interest. Most will tell you that they are selling this product or that in the post. I have seen it with different attractants and protein mixes mainly and the occasional phone app.

I have no issue with it, but would prefer they explain if they were vested in it or not. Changes the validity to the review IMO.


Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5606904 02/18/15 10:10 PM
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In my opinion 95% of the people are willing to disclose if asked to. It is the 5% who evade the question or hide the information knowingly that "screw it up for the rest of us".

Also in the spirit of You smelt It You dealt It - what are your vendor relationships?

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5607032 02/18/15 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave
So I see allot of recommendations here and there, where forum members or product reviewers push particular brands and only later (if ever) it is made known that they might have a vested interest in pushing brand x over other alternatives.

I'm curious what others feelings are on the subject and if those relationships (free gear, reseller, brother owns the company, etc) should be made known so that the reader can factor that into the motivation behind any opinions (either pro or con)? I know that may not be very realistic since it would be on the individuals honor to be honest, but just thinking and wondering if I'm the only one that wonders about this.



I have wondered the same thing. Seems there are some forum members who constantly insist certain products are the best, and all other products are over-priced or junk. Only what they prefer is worth purchasing. Sort of like shills at the carnival.


The Greatest Enemy of knowledge is not ignorance,
it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: txshntr] #5607083 02/18/15 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: Tff caribou
I havnt ever noticed any thf'ers doing this. Thoae that have businesses nearly always have them in their signature.


I have seen a few members push products and it appeared that they had some kind of vested interest. Most will tell you that they are selling this product or that in the post. I have seen it with different attractants and protein mixes mainly and the occasional phone app.

I have no issue with it, but would prefer they explain if they were vested in it or not. Changes the validity to the review IMO.


Could be. I mostly spend my time in the rifles, shotguns, and handguns section and the optics section. Pretty much know who the vendors are in those areas.


The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference. -George Washington
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5607215 02/19/15 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
In my opinion 95% of the people are willing to disclose if asked to. It is the 5% who evade the question or hide the information knowingly that "screw it up for the rest of us".

Also in the spirit of You smelt It You dealt It - what are your vendor relationships?


Me I'm a consumer, I don't sell anything, but have been suckered before hence my post. In all fairness, what are your vendor relationships?

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5607232 02/19/15 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave
Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
In my opinion 95% of the people are willing to disclose if asked to. It is the 5% who evade the question or hide the information knowingly that "screw it up for the rest of us".

Also in the spirit of You smelt It You dealt It - what are your vendor relationships?


Me I'm a consumer, I don't sell anything, but have been suckered before hence my post. In all fairness, what are your vendor relationships?


Tell us more about how you were suckered and why you now feel compelled to tell all in this Optics only venue.

I don't think anybody really cares about me, I'm sitting on 2700 posts and 5 years of being here with never an account warning BUT I have been called a shill countless times - its is all rather pointless to rehash so back to you.

Last edited by HuntTXhogs; 02/19/15 12:47 AM.
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5607280 02/19/15 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs


Tell us more about how you were suckered and why you now feel compelled to tell all in this Optics only venue.

I don't think anybody really cares about me, I'm sitting on 2700 posts and 5 years of being here with never an account warning BUT I have been called a shill countless times - its is all rather pointless to rehash so back to you.


So you don't have any vender relationships that might be viewed as a conflict? Fair enough, but I don't really understand why you are so eager to take issue with something that I was pondering.

Why did I post here? That is a easy one too; Optics are my interest of the moment after just buying a new scope if you must know my motivation (nothing mentioned here in case that is your next question), and I don't really feel compelled to spam my random thought(s) across the forum.

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5607289 02/19/15 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
In my opinion 95% of the people are willing to disclose if asked to. It is the 5% who evade the question or hide the information knowingly that "screw it up for the rest of us".[snip]

Also in the spirit of You smelt It You dealt It - what are your vendor relationships?


Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
I don't think anybody really cares about me [snip].


Oh but I do, that is why I asked. You cared enough to ask me and I was polite enough to answer honestly. Couldn't you do the same?

Aren't you in the 95% that would disclose if asked?

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5607291 02/19/15 01:25 AM
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With all due respect, if you purchase an item based on the recommendation of one person on a forum, that's your fault. I'm shopping for a new scope right now as well. I toom the 2 or 3 most recommended scopes from my posts here, and have done some extensive research on many websites and forums to determine what I want to buy.


The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference. -George Washington
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Tff caribou] #5607306 02/19/15 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tff caribou
With all due respect, if you purchase an item based on the recommendation of one person on a forum, that's your fault. I'm shopping for a new scope right now as well. I toom the 2 or 3 most recommended scopes from my posts here, and have done some extensive research on many websites and forums to determine what I want to buy.


Same here, I have looked at many many pages trying to determine the scope that best fits my needs for what I want to spend. If you are foolish enough to rely on a post made by a covert "pro staffer", that's shame on you


BAKEN-ET's Pro Staff
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Tff caribou] #5607315 02/19/15 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tff caribou
With all due respect, if you purchase an item based on the recommendation of one person on a forum, that's your fault. I'm shopping for a new scope right now as well. I toom the 2 or 3 most recommended scopes from my posts here, and have done some extensive research on many websites and forums to determine what I want to buy.


Quite the leap to a conclusion. My personal experience was with heavy equipment and someone that flat out lied about their interest. Lesson learned.

No it was not for a lack of research on the machinery or on anyone one persons recommendation, but at some point a deal comes down to trusting that the person you are doing business with has honor and integrity. I did, and I drove some 200 miles only to be burned. I chalk it up to a life lesson.

Edited to add: My current interest in optics and posting in this section probably are why you assumed it was forum related, when it really was more of a random thought...

Last edited by Rockfish Dave; 02/19/15 01:49 AM.
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5607353 02/19/15 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave
Originally Posted By: Tff caribou
With all due respect, if you purchase an item based on the recommendation of one person on a forum, that's your fault. I'm shopping for a new scope right now as well. I toom the 2 or 3 most recommended scopes from my posts here, and have done some extensive research on many websites and forums to determine what I want to buy.


Quite the leap to a conclusion. My personal experience was with heavy equipment and someone that flat out lied about their interest. Lesson learned.

No it was not for a lack of research on the machinery or on anyone one persons recommendation, but at some point a deal comes down to trusting that the person you are doing business with has honor and integrity. I did, and I drove some 200 miles only to be burned. I chalk it up to a life lesson.

Edited to add: My current interest in optics and posting in this section probably are why you assumed it was forum related, when it really was more of a random thought...


Ahh ok. Yes, that makes a lot more sense. I was connecting dots that weren't there.


The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference. -George Washington
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5607400 02/19/15 02:17 AM
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I have a Youtube channel that pretty much sums it up, there is Armasight, Pulsar, Sightmark, IR Defense, TNVC, UNV, ATN and more there to be viewed.

I am picking up a Noreen 30-06 tomorrow and have a Black Hole Weaponry barrel and bolt enroute soon. These are coming as Test & Evaluation pieces (T&E).

I have bought, borrowed, sold, and "tested" 98% of the gear above and I do not approach companies saying give me this for that.

All in all I consider myself an Independent reviewer with a PRIMARY focus of sharing my use of products with consumers so that hard earned money is wisely spent.

What do you think of youtube channels like HickOK45, TwangnBang, Iraqveteren8888, etc etc etc?

Are they bought?

I would like to run channels like theirs if I could and I know they don't post in forums and have to explain away the shill and biases but for goodness sakes it is a TON of work and the consumer is ultimately responsible for their purchase decision.

BTW I have never monitinezed a single Youtube video so I guess I kind of do this because I like it.

That's all you get from me and I hope you find peace by posting a "just wondering" post like this but then not sharing the specifics of your bad deal.

I continue to hope there is some future for getting honest to goodness information to customers without them having to navigate threads like land mine fields!

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5607426 02/19/15 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
[snip]What do you think of youtube channels like HickOK45, TwangnBang, Iraqveteren8888, etc etc etc?
Are they bought?

I have no idea.

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
[snip]That's all you get from me and I hope you find peace by posting a "just wondering" post like this

I don't find "peace" in posting on a forum... My life is a little fuller than that. Just a silly comment on the face of it.

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
[continued] but then not sharing the specifics of your bad deal.

Um I did....

Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave
[snip] My personal experience was with heavy equipment and someone that flat out lied about their interest. Lesson learned.

No it was not for a lack of research on the machinery or on anyone one persons recommendation, but at some point a deal comes down to trusting that the person you are doing business with has honor and integrity. I did, and I drove some 200 miles only to be burned. I chalk it up to a life lesson.

Edited to add: My current interest in optics and posting in this section probably are why you assumed it was forum related, when it really was more of a random thought...


Odd how you seemed to take such offense to the post. Just an observation.

Edited to add: Just to clarify the "bad deal" was 200 miles each way, just to be as accurate as possible and I actually bought 2 new scopes. One was on a whim, the other had been back ordered over a year and I was getting a little (okay allot) anxious about getting it. The one on a whim has in fact been mentioned here, but the one I had been waiting so long for has not to my knowledge. They both arrived yesterday so lucky me smile So that is why I have been so interested in the optics forum as of late.

Last edited by Rockfish Dave; 02/19/15 02:40 AM.
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5607476 02/19/15 02:52 AM
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One of the things that is bad about social media is there can be no context given by body language or voice inflection or tone of language used, and this can lead to some mid-interpretations at times and some people can feel attacked where there is no attack being made. In another thread HTxH was being harassed for not wanting more threads about a given topic (or something to that nature) and he may have felt this thread was started as a direct attack on him. Not sure. Either way, you won't find a better guy who is simply trying to give info on different NV equipment via forum and video. He does a lot of work to get info and has relayed that info in very impartial terms here in the forum. I am not sure if there is something deeper in this thread than just a random question, but HTxH is a stand up guy. Not calling you out on anything you have said, but I sensed a little frustration in your last post reply to him, and I don't think he was trying to be hostile, nor do I think you Have been hostile. I just wanted to lighten up a potentially bombastic thread before it gets toasted by the mods, as I oftentimes feel some people on here have some underlying biases (ones mentioned before where they tout a product with only a couple post history for the next greatest game attractant) and it is important to think about as you read through here.

In the medical field, any speaker at a meeting is required to disclose any financial interests in their talk, even if they just are a shareholder in the company of products they are talking about. When we see a pertinent interest in the speaker vs the speech, it raises red flags and the phones come out and people tune out. We know we are in for a company talk. We all want to hear unbiased discussions and that goes around every field, not just in the optical field up

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Texas buckeye] #5607529 02/19/15 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
One of the things that is bad about social media is there can be no context given by body language or voice inflection or tone of language used, and this can lead to some mid-interpretations at times and some people can feel attacked where there is no attack being made. In another thread HTxH was being harassed for not wanting more threads about a given topic (or something to that nature) and he may have felt this thread was started as a direct attack on him. Not sure. Either way, you won't find a better guy who is simply trying to give info on different NV equipment via forum and video. He does a lot of work to get info and has relayed that info in very impartial terms here in the forum. I am not sure if there is something deeper in this thread than just a random question, but HTxH is a stand up guy. Not calling you out on anything you have said, but I sensed a little frustration in your last post reply to him, and I don't think he was trying to be hostile, nor do I think you Have been hostile. I just wanted to lighten up a potentially bombastic thread before it gets toasted by the mods, as I oftentimes feel some people on here have some underlying biases (ones mentioned before where they tout a product with only a couple post history for the next greatest game attractant) and it is important to think about as you read through here.

In the medical field, any speaker at a meeting is required to disclose any financial interests in their talk, even if they just are a shareholder in the company of products they are talking about. When we see a pertinent interest in the speaker vs the speech, it raises red flags and the phones come out and people tune out. We know we are in for a company talk. We all want to hear unbiased discussions and that goes around every field, not just in the optical field up


Hey Texas Buckeye I appreciate your comments and also the added perspective from your field of work.

I'll continue to do what I do and hope that it helps folks with choosing between product A and B and possibly C.

I decided to step forward and address the OPs question head on and again I get targeted as being defensive and guarded and I don't even sell this stuff.

Whatever, I'll post some Noreen BN-36 Assassin with Pulsar APEX thermal goodness and Alexander Arms with Pulsar Digisight LRF information in the end of March.

I really didn't even get to the part that once I put a review or video out in the forums that I don't sit there and beat the drum that it is the only or best option, instead I say my piece and share the reviews as time passes and questions get raised over and over again by consumers looking for information on products A, B or C.

texas

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Texas buckeye] #5607563 02/19/15 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Either way, you won't find a better guy who is simply trying to give info on different NV equipment via forum and video. He does a lot of work to get info and has relayed that info in very impartial terms here in the forum. I am not sure if there is something deeper in this thread than just a random question, but HTxH is a stand up guy.

I do not know him from Adam. I do know that he appeared to have come unhinged for no apparent reason. Clearly the post stuck a nerve, and it does not take a mental health expert to see that.

As for: 'wouldn't find a better guy...' given what I've seen I seriously doubt that.

Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Not calling you out on anything you have said

Heck call me out. If I am unclear, or misspeak, I am more than happy to clarify or correct. My only caveat is if it is too personal or could put private information on the inter-webs that could be used to a malevolent end I'll respectfully have to decline. I'm not so full of pride to think I don't make mistakes, the Lord knows I've made plenty in my time on earth.

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5607587 02/19/15 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
I have a Youtube channel that pretty much sums it up, there is Armasight, Pulsar, Sightmark, IR Defense, TNVC, UNV, ATN and more there to be viewed.

I am picking up a Noreen 30-06 tomorrow and have a Black Hole Weaponry barrel and bolt enroute soon. These are coming as Test & Evaluation pieces (T&E).

I have bought, borrowed, sold, and "tested" 98% of the gear above and I do not approach companies saying give me this for that.

All in all I consider myself an Independent reviewer with a PRIMARY focus of sharing my use of products with consumers so that hard earned money is wisely spent.

What do you think of youtube channels like HickOK45, TwangnBang, Iraqveteren8888, etc etc etc?

Are they bought?

I would like to run channels like theirs if I could and I know they don't post in forums and have to explain away the shill and biases but for goodness sakes it is a TON of work and the consumer is ultimately responsible for their purchase decision.

BTW I have never monitinezed a single Youtube video so I guess I kind of do this because I like it.

That's all you get from me and I hope you find peace by posting a "just wondering" post like this but then not sharing the specifics of your bad deal.

I continue to hope there is some future for getting honest to goodness information to customers without them having to navigate threads like land mine fields!



In all this and no mention of:

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs


Doesn't sound very "independent" or completely honest.

Last edited by Rockfish Dave; 02/19/15 12:29 PM.
Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5608894 02/20/15 12:08 AM
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Rockfish -

I had a big lunch today so I am not as edgy as I was yesterday, in fact I skipped lunch yesterday which really makes me have less tolerance for disrespectful people.

You obviously have no qualms with personally attacking someones integrity whom you've never met I assume based on some key information that you possess that you value as factual.

So pop quiz for you then -

1) What is it exactly, details please, that a ProStaffer receives that would be considered offensive to you or which would surely cause bias?

If I am not exclusive to Pulsar/Sightmark, again reference my youtube channel as my body of work, then what is the term I should use rather than Independent?

I cannot remember why I originally put you on my ignore list, unfortunately your thread title sucked me in and I decided to engage you in conversation, and yes I was a bit curt again explained above but I'd ask that you cease the personal attack of my integrity as I feel as though I go above and beyond to disclose my vendor relationships - proof of which you'll find on AR15 and Predator Masters within the last 6 months in addition to here on THF.

I can't wait to read your response to item #1

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5609071 02/20/15 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
Rockfish -

I had a big lunch today so I am not as edgy as I was yesterday, in fact I skipped lunch yesterday which really makes me have less tolerance for disrespectful people.


Read through your posts and please explain to me how they embody respect? I would really like to know. Rereading your posts you come across as an disrespectful jerk. You took my original post as a personal attack for some reason, and went on the offensive.

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs

You obviously have no qualms with personally attacking someones integrity whom you've never met I assume based on some key information that you possess that you value as factual.


In your grand explanation you failed to mentioned that you were a prostaff member... you claimed to have bought or borrowed the items you "test" with no mention of a vender relationship. Kind of shady in my opinion. It's only my opinion so do not feel obligated to agree if you do not feel so inclined, but please don't get in a huff and play the victim if you don't.

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs

So pop quiz for you then -

1) What is it exactly, details please, that a ProStaffer receives that would be considered offensive to you or which would surely cause bias?


I'd like to know what it entails, so please enlighten me. You have shown to be defensive and evasive when it comes to clarifying things about yourself so again, please enlighten me. Feel free to take it to PM if you are too embarrassed to discuss openly.


Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs

If I am not exclusive to Pulsar/Sightmark, again reference my youtube channel as my body of work, then what is the term I should use rather than Independent?


How about just disclosing those relationships and the nature of involvement like you claim 95% do... or are you "part of the 5% that ruins it all of us"?

By the way what does "ruin it" for you supposed to mean if you don't sell or have any financial interest?

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs

I cannot remember why I originally put you on my ignore list, unfortunately your thread title sucked me in and I decided to engage you in conversation, and yes I was a bit curt again explained above but I'd ask that you cease the personal attack of my integrity as I feel as though I go above and beyond to disclose my vendor relationships - proof of which you'll find on AR15 and Predator Masters within the last 6 months in addition to here on THF.


No personal attack, other than your hyper aggressive posts in response to a general post of mine. Your "integrity" has never been attacked unless asking the same questions that you had asked of me is an attack, or pointing out your convenient omission of the (nebulous) title of 'Pro Staff' was conveniently omitted from your "over and beyond" disclosure.


Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs

I can't wait to read your response to item #1


I hope you enjoyed the read...

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5609086 02/20/15 01:43 AM
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You're gonna see opinions when opinions are asked for. In fact, you're gonna see opinions whether you ask for them or not and the problem is that everyone has one...but that's not really a problem, is it? Or IS it??

Maybe some guys just want to believe they've got the best stuff available and want affirmation. Silly, but why should that get under anyone's skin?

Maybe some guys just have an axe to grind---for whatever reason, justified or not---and want to talk down a certain brand or manufacturer. So what? We all have the right to hate what we hate, love what we love, say what we think, and be completely 100% wrong and if someone's got a problem with that, they own it.

I love Leupold scopes and recommend them. If someone doesn't like that, fine. I think Lee equipment is cheap stuff and if someone asks, I'll say so. If that hurts someone and cuts to the bone, sorry...sorry, but I don't give a rat's a$$.

Danged near EVERYTHING posted in these forums is opinion and no one can escape the odor of others' opinions if they're airing out their own.

And if someone is hawking their goods or services here, good for them and good for everyone. Reputations among closeknit communities are useful and valuable and they work both ways.


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Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5609480 02/20/15 01:09 PM
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The wife cooked up some mean chorizo and eggs this morning - what a great start to the day!

I've learned from this exchange - I can admit that I have alot going on in my head when I read a message but assume there is an alterior motive at play, which is what I did and I was wrong. Here is your original post below.

Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave
So I see allot of recommendations here and there, where forum members or product reviewers push particular brands and only later (if ever) it is made known that they might have a vested interest in pushing brand x over other alternatives.

I'm curious what others feelings are on the subject and if those relationships (free gear, reseller, brother owns the company, etc) should be made known so that the reader can factor that into the motivation behind any opinions (either pro or con)? I know that may not be very realistic since it would be on the individuals honor to be honest, but just thinking and wondering if I'm the only one that wonders about this.



When I read it , it hit that special place in me regarding the "free gear" part. It is a common theme in forums for people to assume that ProStaffers get it and write you off despite your best efforts to be impartial just because they think you get free stuff.

It doesn't work that way and I could have saved alot of typing and probably got my lunch in on Day 1 if I would have just responded in a way that opened up that topic alone for discussion.

Nonetheless I'll roll with the extra PMs and questions that come along with stating up front that your a ProStaffer, many are unrelated to my objectives for example customer service issues, have i tried product xyz, etc etc - You'll see my new signature, it was never a secret and it won't change a single thing about how I approach doing field tests on a fair share of companies in the interest of knowing what the market has to offer.

Have a good one and goodluck in your quest, whatever that may be.

Re: Disclosure of vender relationships? [Re: Rockfish Dave] #5609488 02/20/15 01:15 PM
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Do you get free chorizo and eggs?

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