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Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Shadow357x2] #5573164 01/30/15 05:05 PM
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Expert Opinion / Review

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5573183 01/30/15 05:13 PM
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ezinkscrr Offline
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Originally Posted by HuntTXhogs


Expert Opinion / Review


He must have a different X sight cause mine don't have all the features listed on the box. He must know someone at ATN.


Eric
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Shadow357x2] #5573186 01/30/15 05:18 PM
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So I have been trying to think this through in my head and I think I can explain it in a paragraph or less.

If the upcoming software development kit and firmware software is going to allow zooming to the reticle. What will the effect on screen look like if the reticle is off-center, say in the top left quadrant of the screen. At 1x the reticle will be off center but when you start to zoom in how much shift of image is going to occur? Will the reticle go to the center of the screen and drag the image with it? Or will the shift occur towards the reticle? Either way the shooter stands to lose visibility on what is in the lower right quadrant of the screen.

Note: the sensor is natively 1980x1080 pixels and the viewing screen is 640x480 pixels so at 1x you are seeing roughly half of the image the sensor is broadcasting. If this is so then wouldn't the preferred implementation be that if you zero your scope off-center as described above - when you save the setting it now makes that plot point your new screen center point. Now regardless of zoom level you'll maintain a centered reticle and avoid a shifting image.

Thoughts?

Last edited by HuntTXhogs; 01/30/15 05:19 PM.
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: DavidK] #5573189 01/30/15 05:19 PM
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eyesofahunter, that sounds like a hot tip - I'm running 228 as well, going to change my settings tonight and test this weekend on everready ultra lithiums.

Also going to take a hard look at modifying the battery cap to add spring contacts to eliminate having to put the gorilla torque on the cap to prevent it from resetting on every shot.

I'm also so very tempted to take it apart and look at the electronics. I have some experience programming cell phone chipsets, and this scope is basically a smartphone with an objective lens and no cellular feature. You could easily program an iPhone to do exactly what this scope is doing. I have a suspician that ATN is using an Ambarella A5S chipset, just like the GoPro, and there's a whole community now dedicated to hacking/modding this stuff.


Everywhere I go, there I am.
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: ezinkscrr] #5573221 01/30/15 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ezinkscrr
Originally Posted by HuntTXhogs


Expert Opinion / Review


He must have a different X sight cause mine don't have all the features listed on the box. He must know someone at ATN.


I figured it out we have been mounting the scope all wrong! If you use this mounting method all the features are on available when you are afield. [Linked Image]

I relieved.

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5573250 01/30/15 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
So I have been trying to think this through in my head and I think I can explain it in a paragraph or less.

If the upcoming software development kit and firmware software is going to allow zooming to the reticle. What will the effect on screen look like if the reticle is off-center, say in the top left quadrant of the screen. At 1x the reticle will be off center but when you start to zoom in how much shift of image is going to occur? Will the reticle go to the center of the screen and drag the image with it? Or will the shift occur towards the reticle? Either way the shooter stands to lose visibility on what is in the lower right quadrant of the screen.

Note: the sensor is natively 1980x1080 pixels and the viewing screen is 640x480 pixels so at 1x you are seeing roughly half of the image the sensor is broadcasting. If this is so then wouldn't the preferred implementation be that if you zero your scope off-center as described above - when you save the setting it now makes that plot point your new screen center point. Now regardless of zoom level you'll maintain a centered reticle and avoid a shifting image.

Thoughts?


Sure you're right, when zeroing, ALL in the scope should be reset
to the new zero point,reticle, sensors,screen and whatever more that
i can't set my finger on right now.

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Shadow357x2] #5573287 01/30/15 05:55 PM
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The helpful guys at Scott Country told me that when that fix is released, the reticle will not move, but rather the image will move behind the reticle instead keeping everything centred.

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Shadow357x2] #5573317 01/30/15 06:07 PM
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jimmyb79 what ir do you use ?

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: mikei] #5573321 01/30/15 06:09 PM
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OK, I just passed the two hour mark since installation of the fresh set of batteries. The scope is turned off, and the clock, compass and speedometer were set to "NONE," per the suggestion of eyesofahunter, and I'm pleased to report that all four batteries have retained a full charge! I'll do another check in about 4 hours and let you know what I find. If, indeed, this fixes the issue of rapid battery drain, the next step I'll take is to see which of the functions (clock/compass/speedo) is the culprit. I'll turn one of them on and let the other two stay at the "NONE" value; we may be able to isolate and identify what's causing the problem. This could be valuable information for ATN as they wrestle with the myriad issues that have been identified with .228.

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: mikei] #5573358 01/30/15 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: mikei
OK, I just passed the two hour mark since installation of the fresh set of batteries. The scope is turned off, and the clock, compass and speedometer were set to "NONE," per the suggestion of eyesofahunter, and I'm pleased to report that all four batteries have retained a full charge! I'll do another check in about 4 hours and let you know what I find. If, indeed, this fixes the issue of rapid battery drain, the next step I'll take is to see which of the functions (clock/compass/speedo) is the culprit. I'll turn one of them on and let the other two stay at the "NONE" value; we may be able to isolate and identify what's causing the problem. This could be valuable information for ATN as they wrestle with the myriad issues that have been identified with .228.


I wonder if it is wifi causing the issue I know some devices have a wifi on standby as to allow you to power on the device with the phone.. this is the case with the gopro altho the camera is turned off the wifi is still on.


I'm a terrible shot but I follow up with a grenade!
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5573394 01/30/15 06:48 PM
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Hi everyone! I just got my 5x yesterday but have been following all of your postings since November. Mine came with red buttons and .174 installed but look forward to experimenting with the newest firmware.

Question: if this is correct, "Note: the sensor is natively 1980x1080 pixels and the viewing screen is 640x480 pixels so at 1x you are seeing roughly half of the image the sensor is broadcasting", couldn't ATN add a negative zoom so the scope to show something closer to a 3x zoom by backing out to show more of the sensors pixels? I just brought this up because some people seem to have a difficult time with targets between 20-50 yards, especially moving targets.

Last edited by Spymoto; 01/30/15 06:50 PM.
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: cyberpyrot] #5573411 01/30/15 07:00 PM
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cyberpyrot, I checked both WiFi and GPS and they are both off, as well as the clock, compass and speedo set the "NONE." Unless there is something going on that makes either WiFi or GPS run in the background even with the scope turned off, I don't know what is happening. If, at the end of the current 6 hour test I'm running, the batteries are still fully charged, my assumption is that either clock, compass, speedo, or a combination of all three functions is creating the drain my scope is experiencing.

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Spymoto] #5573412 01/30/15 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Spymoto
Hi everyone! I just got my 5x yesterday but have been following all of your postings since November. Mine came with red buttons and .174 installed but look forward to experimenting with the newest firmware.

Question: if this is correct, "Note: the sensor is natively 1980x1080 pixels and the viewing screen is 640x480 pixels so at 1x you are seeing roughly half of the image the sensor is broadcasting", couldn't ATN add a negative zoom so the scope to show something closer to a 3x zoom by backing out to show more of the sensors pixels? I just brought this up because some people seem to have a difficult time with targets between 20-50 yards, especially moving targets.


Whoa you just blew my mind.... awesome thought!!! at 50 yards the deer fills up the screen..


Last edited by cyberpyrot; 01/30/15 07:01 PM.

I'm a terrible shot but I follow up with a grenade!
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Spymoto] #5573415 01/30/15 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Spymoto
Hi everyone! I just got my 5x yesterday but have been following all of your postings since November. Mine came with red buttons and .174 installed but look forward to experimenting with the newest firmware.

Question: if this is correct, "Note: the sensor is natively 1980x1080 pixels and the viewing screen is 640x480 pixels so at 1x you are seeing roughly half of the image the sensor is broadcasting", couldn't ATN add a negative zoom so the scope to show something closer to a 3x zoom by backing out to show more of the sensors pixels? I just brought this up because some people seem to have a difficult time with targets between 20-50 yards, especially moving targets.


Great thinking



Last edited by MrKingLouie; 01/30/15 07:04 PM.
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: MrKingLouie] #5573425 01/30/15 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: MrKingLouie
I have had my scope running on Kentli Recharable li-ion
AA batteries for 3 hours now, wifi on, gps off,
more info will come...


5.5 hours now on Kentli, wifi on, gps off

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Tapper] #5573453 01/30/15 07:28 PM
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I've been waiting for someone to find the Ambarella connection.

The strings in the firmware and its structure are very similar to the GoPro 3 which uses the A5 chipset and there are many other similarities. There are other cams which use the various Ambarella chipsets. I think they have understandably stripped out some functionality. If you are interested:

http://dc.p-mc.eu/

http://goprouser.freeforums.org/hero3-black-firmware-studies-physical-teardown-photos-t10016-20.html

http://www.wikihow.com/Stream-Your-GoPro-to-Your-PC-Using-VLC-Media-Player (This doesn’t seem to work with the X-Sight as some of the GoPro functionality seems to be missing, but it does show some interesting things. Use 192.168.1.42)

http://blog.infobytesec.com/2013/08/go-deep-pro-1-of-2.html

I tried to weigh in on the firmware rollback situation back in the .200 thread and got an inane reply which said that no-one ever goes back to a previous version of software and that you have to wait for the manufacturer to release a fix. This is known as the Microsoft Windows Syndrome. This was followed by a demeaning comment about punch cards. I refrained from further posts.

I've just been lurking since then and was gratified to be shown correct by dfwroadkill's brave experiment where he discovered you can revert to previous versions. I was too cowardly to try it myself. Thanks dfwroadkill!

I hope some of you bright young programmer types can play with this stuff and share your findings with us old guys.

Thanks,
mikeee

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: MrKingLouie] #5573463 01/30/15 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: MrKingLouie
Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
So I have been trying to think this through in my head and I think I can explain it in a paragraph or less.

If the upcoming software development kit and firmware software is going to allow zooming to the reticle. What will the effect on screen look like if the reticle is off-center, say in the top left quadrant of the screen. At 1x the reticle will be off center but when you start to zoom in how much shift of image is going to occur? Will the reticle go to the center of the screen and drag the image with it? Or will the shift occur towards the reticle? Either way the shooter stands to lose visibility on what is in the lower right quadrant of the screen.

Note: the sensor is natively 1980x1080 pixels and the viewing screen is 640x480 pixels so at 1x you are seeing roughly half of the image the sensor is broadcasting. If this is so then wouldn't the preferred implementation be that if you zero your scope off-center as described above - when you save the setting it now makes that plot point your new screen center point. Now regardless of zoom level you'll maintain a centered reticle and avoid a shifting image.

Thoughts?


Sure you're right, when zeroing, ALL in the scope should be reset
to the new zero point,reticle, sensors,screen and whatever more that
i can't set my finger on right now.


Here is my simpleton look at this.

My 0 is x=73 and y=38 at 1x zoom with reticle center.

I zoom to 4.5x with reticle off screen then go to zero reticle under menu and look at x/y they are x=229 and y=119. On the screen there are two dots the red in center of screen, assume this is factory x=0 y=0 then off to the lower right there is a green dot about where my zero is but the reticle is totaly off the screen in lower right at this zoom. Somewhere in the code the x/y are not being adjusted correctly for the level of zoom. 73 x 4.5 = x of 328.5 and y of 535.5. It seems to not being adjusting x/y beyond 3x.

My reticle leave the screen between 3.0 and 3.5 zoom. If you take x=73 x 3 = 219 and y=38 x 3 = 114 coincidence? This leads me to believe the formula they are using to adjust the centering of the reticle on screen is flawed (stating the obvious) and an adjustment of the formula to correct for zoom would solve all this fire and brimstone.

And as I continue tinkering if I zoom to 4.5x then go to zero reticle screen under the same setting above x=229 y=119 with the two dots on screen. I then press save position without making an adjustment to the original settings and return to home screen. Leaving the zoom at 4.5x and returning to the zero reticle screen what are the x/y numbers???? x=51 y=27 what is 51x4.5?????? 229.5 and what is 27x4.5????? 121.5.

So in conclusion I believe that the code for centering the reticle needs to have added to it a line to include the level of zoom. If Center of Reticle is C then at 1x C= x-73 and y=-38 we know this works since reticle is centered on 1x. Where it appears to run off the rails is there is no adjustment in x/y beyond 1x zoom on the screen. At 2X zoom C= x-146 and y=-76 but this is not accounted for.

Again this comes from the perspective of someone without extensive coding/programing experience but in my simple mind the ratio of zoom to reticle location need to remain constant throughout the adjustment. They have the adjustment calculated right for 1x now carry that forward to 2x 3x 4x....10x

I welcome feedback on my thought process.

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Spymoto] #5573482 01/30/15 07:51 PM
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ATN advertises the viewfinder screen as 800x600. The native resolution of the cmos sensor is probably 1080 high by 1920 wide, so you see full res on recorded video only, and the eyepiece sees an interpolated version which discards more than half of the pixels to display.

Digital Zooming is just carving out a smaller area on the original 1920x1080 "raster" and displaying it as a full size image on the 800x600 view screen which simulates magnification. Zooming backwards (fading) requires a ton of CPU horsepower and sophisticated software to get a result even remotely realistic looking because software is trying to create new information never captured by the cmos chip.

The really interesting thing, comes with the Ambarella chipset's "analytics" coprocessor, and what can be done with it. Motion detection, shape recognition, software triggers, etc. ATN could, if they commit to the programming investment, do some pretty funky stuff with this rig.

Unfortunately, if their programmer(s) are struggling with a simple thing like zooming to a chosen center (the crosshair), I don't hold out much hope we'll see the kind of sophistication the platform is capable of any time soon.


Everywhere I go, there I am.
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Tapper] #5573493 01/30/15 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tapper
ATN advertises the viewfinder screen as 800x600. The native resolution of the cmos sensor is probably 1080 high by 1920 wide, so you see full res on recorded video only, and the eyepiece sees an interpolated version which discards more than half of the pixels to display.

Digital Zooming is just carving out a smaller area on the original 1920x1080 "raster" and displaying it as a full size image on the 800x600 view screen which simulates magnification. Zooming backwards (fading) requires a ton of CPU horsepower and sophisticated software to get a result even remotely realistic looking because software is trying to create new information never captured by the cmos chip.

The really interesting thing, comes with the Ambarella chipset's "analytics" coprocessor, and what can be done with it. Motion detection, shape recognition, software triggers, etc. ATN could, if they commit to the programming investment, do some pretty funky stuff with this rig.

Unfortunately, if their programmer(s) are struggling with a simple thing like zooming to a chosen center (the crosshair), I don't hold out much hope we'll see the kind of sophistication the platform is capable of any time soon.


Heck I would just like them to get the stuff they advertise to work. Seems like ATN got super quiet once again after there last firmware update.
loco


Eric
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: mikeee2] #5573559 01/30/15 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: mikeee2

I've been waiting for someone to find the Ambarella connection.

The strings in the firmware and its structure are very similar to the GoPro 3 which uses the A5 chipset and there are many other similarities. There are other cams which use the various Ambarella chipsets. I think they have understandably stripped out some functionality. If you are interested:

http://dc.p-mc.eu/

http://goprouser.freeforums.org/hero3-black-firmware-studies-physical-teardown-photos-t10016-20.html

http://www.wikihow.com/Stream-Your-GoPro-to-Your-PC-Using-VLC-Media-Player (This doesn’t seem to work with the X-Sight as some of the GoPro functionality seems to be missing, but it does show some interesting things. Use 192.168.1.42)

http://blog.infobytesec.com/2013/08/go-deep-pro-1-of-2.html

I tried to weigh in on the firmware rollback situation back in the .200 thread and got an inane reply which said that no-one ever goes back to a previous version of software and that you have to wait for the manufacturer to release a fix. This is known as the Microsoft Windows Syndrome. This was followed by a demeaning comment about punch cards. I refrained from further posts.

I've just been lurking since then and was gratified to be shown correct by dfwroadkill's brave experiment where he discovered you can revert to previous versions. I was too cowardly to try it myself. Thanks dfwroadkill!

I hope some of you bright young programmer types can play with this stuff and share your findings with us old guys.

Thanks,
mikeee


THIS has been the most useful post I've seen in a long while, because it tells us about how this device might function. If we know the processor's capabilities, we can determine how to make the software do the things we want - within the device's processing limits. If you can narrow this down further to the chipset they use, the sky's the limit. Keep us updated smile


"Being Right, and being Reasonable, are not automatically synonymous." - Me
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Shadow357x2] #5573567 01/30/15 08:35 PM
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Thanks for the screen size, I took a wag at it but same concept regardless.

As for coding a negative zoom (zoom out) below 1x - I wouldn't think they would do it for a couple of reasons.

1) It would encroach on their 3x product
2) The lens focus may not be designed to travel to the focus point needed

Good thought though

Last edited by HuntTXhogs; 01/30/15 09:16 PM.
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: ezinkscrr] #5573569 01/30/15 08:35 PM
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Eyesofahunter - If you think about it, zooming is way easier than that. I don't know how ATN is doing it, but I suspect the zoom function is always tied to the center of the physical image (CI), and that's why an offset zero point (ZP) tends to float along a line drawn between the ZP and the CI. The simple way to do it, is to write the zoom function so that the rectangle of pixels used is always centered on the ZP of the PI, not the zoomed image, or the interpolated image displayed in the LCD. That way you don't need much math, and the function is nice and fast, and the zoom function has absolutely no effect on point of impact. The crosshair is just an overlay graphic centered on the ZP in all views.
Maybe the Ambarella SDK only includes a scaling function using the CI, or maybe the ATN guys are doing something dumb to zoom, I dunno.


Everywhere I go, there I am.
Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: MoShootr] #5573570 01/30/15 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: MoShootr
Originally Posted By: cyberpyrot

"Users of older iOS devices, desperate to find solutions, have flooded the Apple Support Communities forum in a thread dedicated to the problem. As I write this, there are more than 525,000 messages devoted to it and no answers"


I just wanted to quote that. 6th generation device, still lots of problems. Should demand refunds. (I hate Apple with a fire-fueled passion, so I might be a little biased.)

Now, on to more positive matters...

Originally Posted By: Eyesofahunter
An update to my battery life. From the start I had turned off GPS and WiFi and experienced battery drain in a rapid fashion. During my last battery exchange (Cheap Dollar General HD) under Menu - Display I turned the Clock,Compass and Speedometer positions to NONE. I went hunting last Saturday, used the scope for nearly 2 hours and this week I have been testing various items: video/pictures/IR position on rifle/scope settings here at the house. I am still on the same set of batteries!! Maybe I got a super set of batteries or maybe the settings made a difference. Wanted to share so others suffering from Battery Drain might try it and see if I am on to something.


I'm VERY glad you found the source of your battery drain! It's good info and very useful to all of us, and can really save some people (like me laugh ) a lot of money and headache. Thanks for the report.

Suggestion to ATN: Incorporate "Quick Power Profiles" into your scope! Also, maybe have an automated 'shutdown' script that sets all these options to OFF, when the scope powers down.



iPhone did what they said it would when it shipped...and it shipped with a straight screen.

iPhone/ X-sight: both intended to be disruptive product launches...but only one was.

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Shadow357x2] #5573596 01/30/15 08:50 PM
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Been a long time since Ive coded but I would imagine its easier now than back in the late 80 early 90s.
Being that its a .bin file thats used to update these scopes wouldnt it be possible for someone thats up to date in programming to reverse engineer the file? I would imagine that they have encrypted it but as we all know there are ways around that as well. I would think it could be done with a compiler of some sort.
Once into the software it wouldnt be hard to decipher the workings of the scope and be able to customize it as needed or even (Here it comes) help out ATN's engineers since they must have their heads in a hole somewhere.
Im not sure about infringement of copyrights or any of that but things like this are done all the time with software.
Just curious. Almost makes me want to dive back in and see what I could mess up. I would just like to see the coding myself.

Re: X-Sight Owners forum for the (1.8.00.228) firmware update. [Re: Tapper] #5573599 01/30/15 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tapper
Eyesofahunter - If you think about it, zooming is way easier than that. I don't know how ATN is doing it, but I suspect the zoom function is always tied to the center of the physical image (CI), and that's why an offset zero point (ZP) tends to float along a line drawn between the ZP and the CI. The simple way to do it, is to write the zoom function so that the rectangle of pixels used is always centered on the ZP of the PI, not the zoomed image, or the interpolated image displayed in the LCD. That way you don't need much math, and the function is nice and fast, and the zoom function has absolutely no effect on point of impact. The crosshair is just an overlay graphic centered on the ZP in all views.
Maybe the Ambarella SDK only includes a scaling function using the CI, or maybe the ATN guys are doing something dumb to zoom, I dunno.


Tapper: My long winded look at this was along the line of if they can center the crosshair in the image post my zero adjustment how hard is it to add a line of code saying crosshair center = x/y at 2x and so on for all levels of zoom. It just does not seem that hard at this point to edit the code to accomplish this. It also seems they stopped at 3x zoom since the x/y do not adjust beyond that. But as you said they might be trying to solve a simple problem with a complex solution.

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