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Mar 25th, 2012
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Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack #5555348 01/21/15 02:33 PM
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I've been hunting west texas off and on with my in-laws for 15+ years and I've been unable to convince them to take does. We've never had a survey done, but it's not uncommon to see 8-12 does at a time when the feeders throw. There's a few feeder locations that always have 2-3 bucks as well and most cam pics seem to the same deer (bucks at least) throughout the year. Their property is 1200 acres with 3 sides low fenced and at least two neighbors that practice good deer management (taking culls and mature bucks). Not sure on the ratio accuracy from sitting in stands alone, but on any given morning hunt we probably see 25 does and 5-8 bucks totaling 4 stand locations. The ratio seems far from desireable and I need to build a case to convince the 3 owners. Any and all comments welcome as I plan to show this thread to the BIL.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555374 01/21/15 02:43 PM
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Get solid numbers backed up by numbers from TP&W. TP&W biologist will come out and discuss the numbers with you or for you.


Tired, Wired, and Uninspired
Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: BenBob] #5555418 01/21/15 03:03 PM
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Sounds like you are hunting for free. I would just keep my mouth shut.

Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555428 01/21/15 03:10 PM
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What are the fawn numbers like? Have you done a survey? Taken incidental counts? You will need actual numbers seen on surveys. TPWD can tell you what your carrying capacity should be in that area.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: scattergun] #5555463 01/21/15 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: scattergun
Sounds like you are hunting for free. I would just keep my mouth shut.


I've done more labor and spent more $$$ on equipment (my corn, feeder, and stand) than two of owners combined so keeping quiet probably won't happen. Probably wouldn't happen regardless of my involvement. My BIL is concerned being a 50% owner so just trying to help him out.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555485 01/21/15 03:36 PM
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@ stxrancg man. I've done basic surveys from the many stand locations, but nothing legit I'm sure. Fawn crop health are probably 3 average per sit (not at all sure if this is good, bad, or average). I'd say 90% of the two doe groups that come in contain a fawn. I say "groups" because these deer are seen approaching the feeder from several hundred yards away in many locations.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555488 01/21/15 03:37 PM
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Please jog my memory on "incidental counts"



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555510 01/21/15 03:48 PM
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You need hard numbers that are kept from every sit in a blind for a full month or season. Incidental counts are done in off season(late July till deer season) when at the ranch and just riding around. You write down every deer sighted each time you are out. Keep a record of does, fawns and bucks. You need to get spotlight surveys done yearly. A simple WAG on ratios and numbers will change what you think is out there when you look at blind counts, incidental counts and survey numbers. If you are going to talk to them all as a group you need hard number info to back up what you are wanting to do.
I was told that the WMA COOP for my county surveys this area I have my place. Buck to doe ratio was 1 to 2.75 with a deer to 17 acres. My blind counts showed a buck to doe ratio of 1 to 1.25 this year and it was 1 to 1.7 2 yrs ago. I would think my deer per acre numbers are around 1 deer to 7-9 acres based off of my blind counts and TC pics of buck numbers that I know I have. I have also shown a bit higher fawn crop the past 2 yrs than the WMA survey.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555514 01/21/15 03:50 PM
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When you get proper buck/doe ratio you get better quality deer in the herd, both bucks and does. Go buy yourself a copy of 'A Practical Guide to Producing and Harvesting White Tailed Deer' by Dr James Kroll (a shout out for SFA)

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Guide-Pr...rds=james+kroll

Read it and then pass it on to the Brothers in Law. After that go get the rest of his books. Lots and lots of useful information all backed up by years of proven research.

Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555555 01/21/15 04:02 PM
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One other thing you have to consider out west is you are managing in the desert and dealing with drought conditions all the time. You also have to factor in anthrax into your management in some areas. It is not if it will happen but when it will happen certain areas. Get with your TPWD biologist and have him at the ranch will all the group to discuss a management plan. Sometimes an outside voice will carry more weight.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555608 01/21/15 04:23 PM
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This is all much appreciated info and quite a lot to take in. He does want to proceed with a TPWD survey per our last convo, but can do you guys agree that a handfull of does taken in 17 years is a bit odd? To their credit they've taken 5 bucks of at least 140" that I know of.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555629 01/21/15 04:31 PM
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Not really if the fawn crops do not support having to kill any does. Just cause you have doe does not mean you have to many. Predators and drought are always a problem out west. Hard for an animal to live on rocks some years. The habitat and CC is what is going to tell if you need to shoot does. Also those doe are not living forever. They will die of old age. Also WT out west will travel a long ways. We have not ever seen a WT doe on our 70,000 acre MD lease west of you in Pecos County. We had only seen 4 WT bucks during the MD season in the previous 7 yrs. This year we saw at least 5 WT bucks on the ranch. The locations were 9 miles apart(2 main areas) as far as where they were seen on the ranch. The ones on the south end of the ranch were moving from west to east. No telling how far they are traveling. We had great late fall and into winter rains. I will not be suprised if WT does show up next year.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555638 01/21/15 04:34 PM
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If your taking 140s in west Tx you aint doing so bad. Did yalls area get any of the rain this year?

Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555644 01/21/15 04:40 PM
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The MD herd was hardly seen this year on the ranch and this seems to be the case any year with decent rainfall. The neighboring 15K acre ranch that recently high fenced has played a part in less MD I believe.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: Navasot] #5555652 01/21/15 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Navasot
If your taking 140s in west Tx you aint doing so bad. Did yalls area get any of the rain this year?


I really don't know the exact rainfall numbers, but the ranch has been really green for two years running. Five 140" bucks seems nice, but not over a 17 year span IMO. Two of those bucks had inside spreads of 23" or greater and branched G2 or G3's leading some to believe Hybrid. That's a discussion for another time I suppose.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555655 01/21/15 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: titan2232
The MD herd was hardly seen this year on the ranch and this seems to be the case any year with decent rainfall. The neighboring 15K acre ranch that recently high fenced has played a part in less MD I believe.

We have all LF neighbors and saw very few MD this year. Matter of fact it was our worst season for hunting/seeing mature bucks in 8 yrs. Fence was not the issue for us. We had pastures were you could see 35-45 MD in a morning hunt that had next to no deer sighted. The heat and late rainfall had our deer laying all day or moved miles from where they had been in the past.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555762 01/21/15 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: titan2232
Originally Posted By: Navasot
If your taking 140s in west Tx you aint doing so bad. Did yalls area get any of the rain this year?


I really don't know the exact rainfall numbers, but the ranch has been really green for two years running. Five 140" bucks seems nice, but not over a 17 year span IMO. Two of those bucks had inside spreads of 23" or greater and branched G2 or G3's leading some to believe Hybrid. That's a discussion for another time I suppose.


Has the area been known to push bigger deer than that?

Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5555998 01/21/15 06:54 PM
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Some of the best deer seen on the property have came from the 15K acre ranch, but that has slowed since the partial high fencing. Deer still come from that ranch by accessing The Dosier Canyon and coming around the high fence. Most of the mature deer shot have so so tine length and good spread (18" are common amoung mature bucks). Big MD are seen ever so often on game cam, but seldom during their season. I'll try to post two of the more recent deer shot (2010 & 2013)



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5556302 01/21/15 09:22 PM
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Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5556332 01/21/15 09:32 PM
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The pictures arent the best, but it's all I have. I was told both these deer are at 140", but I can't confirm or deny.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: titan2232] #5556963 01/22/15 03:06 AM
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Did the pictures post? I'm quite sure I know not what I'm doing.



Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: stxranchman] #5557025 01/22/15 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Not really if the fawn crops do not support having to kill any does. Just cause you have doe does not mean you have to many. Predators and drought are always a problem out west. Hard for an animal to live on rocks some years. The habitat and CC is what is going to tell if you need to shoot does. Also those doe are not living forever. They will die of old age. Also WT out west will travel a long ways. We have not ever seen a WT doe on our 70,000 acre MD lease west of you in Pecos County. We had only seen 4 WT bucks during the MD season in the previous 7 yrs. This year we saw at least 5 WT bucks on the ranch. The locations were 9 miles apart(2 main areas) as far as where they were seen on the ranch. The ones on the south end of the ranch were moving from west to east. No telling how far they are traveling. We had great late fall and into winter rains. I will not be suprised if WT does show up next year.


I hope those wt move out of there or die off

That's all we need are a bunch of hybrid bucks running around

Re: Eastern Terrell Count ratio out of whack [Re: stxranchman] #5557028 01/22/15 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: titan2232
The MD herd was hardly seen this year on the ranch and this seems to be the case any year with decent rainfall. The neighboring 15K acre ranch that recently high fenced has played a part in less MD I believe.

We have all LF neighbors and saw very few MD this year. Matter of fact it was our worst season for hunting/seeing mature bucks in 8 yrs. Fence was not the issue for us. We had pastures were you could see 35-45 MD in a morning hunt that had next to no deer sighted. The heat and late rainfall had our deer laying all day or moved miles from where they had been in the past.


The deer where there. I saw too much sign to think otherwise.

Now where they were hiding is anyone's guess

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