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Steady to wing, shot and fall #5555229 01/21/15 01:33 PM
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bill oxner Online Content OP
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I was asked for advice in this area. This is the best I can give. Let's have your input.


"In NSTRA the handler shoots over hid dog's points. I've seen maybe 2 in 15 years that were steady. It's a long and difficult road for most dogs, and you can't do it with a gun in your hand. It's difficult to keep them steady until you flush with an un-broke dog when you have a gun in your hand. I've seen several people try. It's not easy. Most pups end up steady to wing, shot and fall during the breaking process. An old expression of mine is that they, "Come un-broke," when you start shooting birds over them and letting them retrieve."


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill


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Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5555270 01/21/15 01:52 PM
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I struggle with this with my 3yr old GSP in the field.

During training, she is fairly steady to the gun, but on wild birds, if a shot is taken she breaks to the bird. That being said, her breaking has resulted in her retrieving downed birds I thought I missed. One very memorable rooster retrieve in South Dakota earlier this season, longest retrieve she's ever made. So I guess I'm torn on whether to invest more time on training her to be steady or invest more time on getting better at shooting grin


Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: CSF] #5556688 01/22/15 12:45 AM
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All of my trial dogs were steady until I released them. It is a lot of repetition. At first you have to have an iron clad whoa built in. Again repetition. I begin teaching whoa on a barrel on it's side as young pups. I would style them up and then rock the barrel and repeat whoa if they moved. It doesn't take much rocking. When they had that down I would move to the ground. I would make them stand at whoa outside their pens on whoa (on a chain of course) morning and night while I cleaned their pens, changed their water and fed them. When I was finished I would release the chain and make them stay on whoa until I said alright and tapped them on the back of the head. The second command was the release. That way if I was at a trial and one of my "friends" said alright my dog would stand there until the tap on the back of the head actually released them.

It worked for not only standing until shot, fall and release but also on backing. Pretty soon it became automatic. As a result my dogs looked like they were pointing when the whoa command was given. You never want a dog to looked cowed down like he or she was beaten when standing. Just my way of doing it.

If they ever broke I would pick them up by the collar and tail and return them to the original spot and make them stand there while another dog got the retrieve and eventual head off the bird.


Bobby Barnett

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5556725 01/22/15 01:05 AM
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that tap on the head, great idea. when training buggy horse's, I would use the command "bit" that was the giddy up, when in crowds, someone invariably will say giddy up, my horses' never moved till I have the "bit" command


hold on Newt, we got a runaway
Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: colt45] #5556749 01/22/15 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: colt45
that tap on the head, great idea. when training buggy horse's, I would use the command "bit" that was the giddy up, when in crowds, someone invariably will say giddy up, my horses' never moved till I have the "bit" command
up


Bobby Barnett

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5557084 01/22/15 04:33 AM
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Great expression Bill "Come un-broke," when you start shooting birds over them and letting them retrieve."

very true words


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Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: CSF] #5557322 01/22/15 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: CSF
I struggle with this with my 3yr old GSP in the field.

During training, she is fairly steady to the gun, but on wild birds, if a shot is taken she breaks to the bird. That being said, her breaking has resulted in her retrieving downed birds I thought I missed. One very memorable rooster retrieve in South Dakota earlier this season, longest retrieve she's ever made. So I guess I'm torn on whether to invest more time on training her to be steady or invest more time on getting better at shooting grin


Jenny has zero formal training. She is steady through the shot. I don't care what she does after that since she is looking for the bird. I suppose field trialers care because it's a safety issue? IDK.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5557466 01/22/15 01:51 PM
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I'm a fan of steady to wing and shot, but not fall. After the shot I'd rather have my dog hustling to the downed bird. Especially since wild birds will hit the ground running.


Say When.....
Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5557753 01/22/15 03:38 PM
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I am a fan of wing shot and fall for safety reasons and so the dog can mark multiple birds. That last part rarely happens though.


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: CinchMan] #5557771 01/22/15 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: CinchMan
I'm a fan of steady to wing and shot, but not fall. After the shot I'd rather have my dog hustling to the downed bird. Especially since wild birds will hit the ground running.


I found this to be most to my advantage in hunting.
I want the dog steady until I pull the trigger. After that, I've seen them chase down wounded birds for as far away as 100 yards or more.
Sometimes the bird is hit hard enough that it flies quite a distance then falls dead.

Saves me a lot of walking if they can follow the bird down.
I'm all for that, but I don't trial these dogs.




"Count that day lost whose low, descending sun
Is not, in part, obscured by powder from my gun"
B. Spiller
Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5557821 01/22/15 04:09 PM
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This is a little hijack of my own thread, but I'm pretty sure a dog can follow the scent of a flying bird, maybe even tell if its wounded or not.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill


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Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5557840 01/22/15 04:17 PM
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I would rather mine be steady till sent, and did work on it at first. I just didn't follow through when hunting season started.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5558147 01/22/15 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
This is a little hijack of my own thread, but I'm pretty sure a dog can follow the scent of a flying bird, maybe even tell if its wounded or not.


That could be, never thought of it.
I do know for sure that she'll follow them into the next county if she has an eye on 'em.




"Count that day lost whose low, descending sun
Is not, in part, obscured by powder from my gun"
B. Spiller
Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: CinchMan] #5558282 01/22/15 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: CinchMan
I'm a fan of steady to wing and shot, but not fall. After the shot I'd rather have my dog hustling to the downed bird. Especially since wild birds will hit the ground running.


Wild birds, pen raised birds, it doesn't matter. They will all crawl or run off even if they can't fly. I see and hear it all the time. "That bird fell dead, I know it is right here." and we'll find it 30 or 40 feet or more away.
I don't know whether it is because most people prefer to shoot light gauge guns on quail, but a good 90% of the birds I take from a dogs mouth are alive.

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: Pointer] #5558536 01/22/15 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pointer
Originally Posted By: CinchMan
I'm a fan of steady to wing and shot, but not fall. After the shot I'd rather have my dog hustling to the downed bird. Especially since wild birds will hit the ground running.


Wild birds, pen raised birds, it doesn't matter. They will all crawl or run off even if they can't fly. I see and hear it all the time. "That bird fell dead, I know it is right here." and we'll find it 30 or 40 feet or more away.
I don't know whether it is because most people prefer to shoot light gauge guns on quail, but a good 90% of the birds I take from a dogs mouth are alive.


That why we shoot high brass 7 1/2's. I hate losing birds that I hit. I will look for 20 minutes and sometimes double back by later.


Originally Posted by bill oxner
Haven't had it in years but never spit any out.
Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5558971 01/23/15 01:04 AM
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Please explain in more detail the whoa barrel training. I have a young dog that needs some work.

Also, this probably needs its own thread but how do you train a dog to honor?

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5559039 01/23/15 01:36 AM
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I never understand what high brass has to do with the load

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5559044 01/23/15 01:38 AM
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Mine holds until the birds flush...most of the time. I'm good with that. honestly I don't know if she's steady to shot because I'm busy shooting. After the shot it is a sh-t show...she goes nuts trying to find more birds.

You won't see me at field trials and I usually hunt alone. Maybe the next dog will be more polished.

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: rowdydog1] #5559082 01/23/15 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: rowdydog1
Please explain in more detail the whoa barrel training. I have a young dog that needs some work.

Also, this probably needs its own thread but how do you train a dog to honor?
Here's a few good articles on it. Google is your friend as well as you tube.

http://www.sportdog.com/hunting-training...nt-command-whoa

http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/whoa-isnt-for-the-birds-Page1.htm



Bobby Barnett

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5562936 01/25/15 07:05 AM
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Bill, I'm convinced the experienced dogs can tell if the birds are crippled or not, and even the young pups can tell the difference between dead and alive if they've had enough retrieves. I presume they can smell the birds breath and blood.

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: blanked] #5568875 01/28/15 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: blanked
I never understand what high brass has to do with the load


up

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5568961 01/28/15 03:43 PM
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High Brass to me is just a term for "hotter faster load". I have no idea why most manufacturers make their hot loads in a high brass shell, I handload a shell that is hotter / faster than anything you can buy easily and I load them in low brass hulls. I would assume they make them in high brass to make them stronger. I haven't had one fail. But when you go to the store looking for 3 3/4 drm eq. with 1 1/4 oz of shot and 1350 - 1400 fps shells, they are going to be high brass.


Originally Posted by bill oxner
Haven't had it in years but never spit any out.
Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner] #5569473 01/28/15 08:05 PM
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I have halfway tried once with a dog that I self-trained, and I quickly let that lapse when I started hunting the pup on wild birds -- in Bills words the dog (my current Sadie) became unbroke. I think I learned my lesson.

I hunted with a friend that had 8 shorthairs that were all broke to wing, shot, and would only release to command. It was the most unbelievable thing you have ever seen - covey would get up, all three dogs on point would stay on point, the friend would say "Sid, fetch". Sid would go get the bird, bring it to hand. Other two dogs still staunch - owner would say "Angel-fetch" Angel goes and gets the bird, fetches, sits beside owner, King - fetch.... It was really awesome to behold the first two coveys, then it drove me a bit crazy.

Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: danceswithquail] #5569880 01/28/15 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: danceswithquail
I have halfway tried once with a dog that I self-trained, and I quickly let that lapse when I started hunting the pup on wild birds -- in Bills words the dog (my current Sadie) became unbroke. I think I learned my lesson.

I hunted with a friend that had 8 shorthairs that were all broke to wing, shot, and would only release to command. It was the most unbelievable thing you have ever seen - covey would get up, all three dogs on point would stay on point, the friend would say "Sid, fetch". Sid would go get the bird, bring it to hand. Other two dogs still staunch - owner would say "Angel-fetch" Angel goes and gets the bird, fetches, sits beside owner, King - fetch.... It was really awesome to behold the first two coveys, then it drove me a bit crazy.
Sounds like a lot of polish on those dogs. It is amazing to watch.


Bobby Barnett

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