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Ideal Red Sheep #5543097 01/14/15 10:32 PM
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Kobus Offline OP
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What is your idea of looks wise of an ideal red sheep. I know that they are a naturally occurring hybrid in Iran with Armenian Mouflon and Transcaspian Urial.
As a line, sometimes they show traits of one parent over the other.

Feel free to post some pictures of Red sheep either alive or taken that you think are ideal and fit your picture of them!

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5543912 01/15/15 04:32 AM
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Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5544110 01/15/15 12:40 PM
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This would work for me.



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Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5544196 01/15/15 01:47 PM
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This one works for me

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: okierifleman] #5544267 01/15/15 02:18 PM
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Very Nice!!!


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Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5544481 01/15/15 04:00 PM
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how big was each of your sheep that are pictured?

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5544493 01/15/15 04:05 PM
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Here is one that has a lot of Urial in his pedigree


Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5545173 01/15/15 09:35 PM
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Red sheep should show more mouflon characteristics than urial IMO. They should have a patch and not urial type horns. My ram was right at 37" both sides and curremtly the all time number 2 archery red sheep ever taken for TGR. They are much more strict now on the traits and colors to get into each catagory. Last sheep pictured to me should be called a urial cross not a red sheep. The rams elkhunter posted show more afgan urial traits than red sheep and a red sheeps horns should go down not back behind there head.


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Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5545386 01/15/15 11:05 PM
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From all the research that we have done it's somewhat the opposite. Being an Armenian Mouflon (which has the more "halo" arched back frame) and Urial Hybrid, the ones that Elk Hunter posted is the Classic Red Sheep look. We visited with the Hunting Consortium about their Red Sheep in Iran and this is the Classic look. Go to their website and see Jim Shockey's Ram, it's the exact form of Elk Hunters photos. They told me the ones with the more Mouflon characteristics are from Texan's crossing European Mouflon with Red Sheep and sometimes Urials.
TonyinVA is definitely more of an Afghan type which is also a cross.

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5545389 01/15/15 11:07 PM
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Please let me add that they are all very fine trophies and congrats to you all!

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Bowman24] #5545480 01/15/15 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bowman24
From all the research that we have done it's somewhat the opposite. Being an Armenian Mouflon (which has the more "halo" arched back frame) and Urial Hybrid, the ones that Elk Hunter posted is the Classic Red Sheep look. We visited with the Hunting Consortium about their Red Sheep in Iran and this is the Classic look. Go to their website and see Jim Shockey's Ram, it's the exact form of Elk Hunters photos. They told me the ones with the more Mouflon characteristics are from Texan's crossing European Mouflon with Red Sheep and sometimes Urials.
TonyinVA is definitely more of an Afghan type which is also a cross.


This debate never seems to die

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5545950 01/16/15 03:17 AM
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the debate always goes on....and everyone has an opinion...just like everyone has a azzhole

FROM AN EARLIER POST...JUST MY OPINION

A Red Sheep is a naturally occurring hybrid in the wild between a Transcaspian Urial X Armenian Mouflon. So given it is a hybrid, I suspect that the offspring may favor one parent or the other resulting in some variation in how a wild Red Sheep might look.

Now what happens with this first generation Red Sheep? Does he or she say, "Hey, I'm a Red Sheep so I'm only going to stay/breed with other Red Sheep." or is that first generation Red Sheep going to end up as part of the ewes herd. I suspect it's the later. That means that the first generation Red sheep is going to mate with a higher probability with either a Transcaspian Urial or an Armenian Mouflon than another Red Sheep. So what is this second generation sheep? It's not a Transcaspian and it is not an Armenian. Is it a Red Sheep or is it a Red Sheep hybrid? I suspect that if you were hunting Red Sheep in their native range the guides and record book would classify it as a Red Sheep.

Now we come to Texas where ranchers are breeding Red Sheep...making their own Transcaspian Urial x Armenian Mouflon hybrids. Like in the wild I suspect that the off spring may have characteristics that favor one parent....probably the horns will either sweep back like an Armenian or flair out and curve/curl upward like a Transcaspian. And depending on what the rancher likes...that's the look he will breed for. So what is the correct look for a Red Sheep?

Now after breeding Red Sheep x Red Sheep the rancher may want to throw a Transcaspian Urial in with his Red Sheep ewes to get better body size or longer/heavier horns. What does he have now....is it still a Red Sheep or is it a Red Sheep hybrid?

In the wild the wild it would seem that any hybrid that is part Transcaspian and part Armenian would be a Red Sheep. But what about in Texas where ranchers manipulate the breeding? Does the definition of a Texas Red Sheep need to be defined as 50% Transcaspian Urial and 50% Armenian Mouflon.....and if the Red Sheep is breed back to say a Transcaspian Urial it's now a Red Sheep Hybrid?

Seems like there is a can of worms here if one wanted to open it.

Last edited by TonyinVA; 01/16/15 03:23 AM.
Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5546034 01/16/15 03:57 AM
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I don't mind the debate smile
I find it quite interesting.

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Bowman24] #5546062 01/16/15 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bowman24
Please let me add that they are all very fine trophies and congrats to you all!


To be clear..that is not me in the pic...I wish it was my ram. And as I said, It has a lot of Urial in it's pedigree....and it was Transcaspian Urial NOT Afghan Urial in the pedigree.

Last edited by TonyinVA; 01/16/15 04:14 AM.
Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5546134 01/16/15 05:27 AM
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I don't get the argument Red Sheep are a cross with various degrees of intergrade. Even in Iran they vary and tend more towards Armenian Mouflon closer to their range and more towards Urial closer to their range. They're all Red Sheep you just have to decide which look you like. I do think that; it's one animal that that you really need to see pictures of before the hunt.


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Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: nsmike] #5546298 01/16/15 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: nsmike
I don't get the argument Red Sheep are a cross with various degrees of intergrade. Even in Iran they vary and tend more towards Armenian Mouflon closer to their range and more towards Urial closer to their range. They're all Red Sheep you just have to decide which look you like. I do think that; it's one animal that that you really need to see pictures of before the hunt.


I've said before that I'm not a sheep guy and know very little about them. I was hunting a big Axis when I photographed those two rams from about 250-300 yards away. I just like the way they looked and I think they are majestic looking when they pose like that. I doubt the ram in the photo weighed over 100lbs and could move over those rocky hills with tremendous speed. I may hunt one in May when I go back looking for a monster Axis!!!! Baker


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Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5546439 01/16/15 02:30 PM
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I shot my sheep on the same ranch that Roland took those pics. My ram wasn't much bigger than 100#. There are no other sheep on this ranch with the exception of aoudad, so there is no interbreeding there. Yes, the debate continues, you see animals called red sheep that are every size and shape imaginable. If you look at the SCI records, they let them all in and classify them as reds, even though most of them look completely different than others classified that way. Some of them are small animals and look more like an Armenian, and some of them are bigger and look more like a TCU.

Now, I am no wildlife biologist, and damn sure don't proclaim to be the worlds authority on sheep, but this is what I have read in some scientific circles. Naturally occurring sheep in their home country are pretty close to 50/50 with chromosome counts around 54-58 one way or another.The saddle patch and bib may be present or not present. The ruff on the neck and the horn configuration are variable. The general color runs from tan to light brown, with some individuals going from a light grayish brown to redish brown. Their undersides are white. The darker brown animals often found in Texas are a result of interbreeding with European mouflons,as neither the Armenian or TCU exhibit these colors. So, take that for what it is worth, and let the debate continue

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: nsmike] #5546444 01/16/15 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: nsmike
I don't get the argument Red Sheep are a cross with various degrees of intergrade. Even in Iran they vary and tend more towards Armenian Mouflon closer to their range and more towards Urial closer to their range. They're all Red Sheep you just have to decide which look you like. I do think that; it's one animal that that you really need to see pictures of before the hunt.


X2 could not agree more

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5546747 01/16/15 04:35 PM
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Just to add to the discussion (not a debate) ...This is a picture of the Red Sheep at the White Elk Ranch in Nebraska. According to Tad Pucket (the owner) these are Transcaspian Urial and Armenian Mouflon Crosses. The White Elk Ranch raises and hunts both Transcaspian Urial and Armenian Mouflon sheep. So if we take him at his word, this is what a Red sheep "can" look like.




Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5546754 01/16/15 04:37 PM
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Wow he looks nice!

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5546809 01/16/15 05:05 PM
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From the White Elk Ranch website...here is an Armenian Mouflon (that's what they list it as). I do not recall ever seeing an Armenian Mouflon with this much mass.....he's a brute.


Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5546837 01/16/15 05:16 PM
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Our family friend who also was our taxidermist shot the SCI #1 Armenian Mouflon a while back. Not sure if it's the top one still but that thing was a toad.

My Armenian is just a little 2 year runt. (Fell victim to a ranch up northeast that was selling "trophy Armenians" for a price that was too good to be true)

Wouldn't mind taking a crack at a monster armenian in his reddish chestnut winter coat. smile

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5546992 01/16/15 06:59 PM
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Tad has some monsters up there in everything. I would love to go up there some day and check it out.

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: okierifleman] #5562820 01/25/15 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: okierifleman
I shot my sheep on the same ranch that Roland took those pics. My ram wasn't much bigger than 100#. There are no other sheep on this ranch with the exception of aoudad, so there is no interbreeding there. Yes, the debate continues, you see animals called red sheep that are every size and shape imaginable. If you look at the SCI records, they let them all in and classify them as reds, even though most of them look completely different than others classified that way. Some of them are small animals and look more like an Armenian, and some of them are bigger and look more like a TCU.

Now, I am no wildlife biologist, and damn sure don't proclaim to be the worlds authority on sheep, but this is what I have read in some scientific circles. Naturally occurring sheep in their home country are pretty close to 50/50 with chromosome counts around 54-58 one way or another.The saddle patch and bib may be present or not present. The ruff on the neck and the horn configuration are variable. The general color runs from tan to light brown, with some individuals going from a light grayish brown to redish brown. Their undersides are white. The darker brown animals often found in Texas are a result of interbreeding with European mouflons,as neither the Armenian or TCU exhibit these colors. So, take that for what it is worth, and let the debate continue




Ox Ranch?
I think on their site they have Corsican and Mouflon. If they don't keep them seperate, then you are probably going to see one of the best red sheep herd in America go bye bye.*

*As temple cheers it on. crying

Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus] #5562879 01/25/15 05:33 AM
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There are a lot of ranches that list animals on their sites they don't actually have. Its kind of a you want to hunt it, we got it kind of a thing. I hunt that ranch 5 or 6 times a year. Unless they put those sheep on that ranch in the last month or so, they don't have them.

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