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Mar 25th, 2012
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Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking #5518800 01/04/15 05:20 PM
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kayjayess Offline OP
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Dear fellow hunters,

I am a B.C. resident hunter and have been let down by my government. The GOABC (guide outfitters of B.C.) have succesfully lobbied the government of B.C. to dramatically increase their quota on certain species (big dollar animals) at the expense of the resident hunter. 40 % of sheep/grizzly and goat in the north have been allocated to the outfitters of the GOABC and up to 25 % of other species. Considering that the average allotment to non residents in the USA and Canada is between 5-10 % this hurts. We are concerned about the future of hunting for our children when commerical interest takes precedent over the citizens interest. We can't match the financial contributions to the government that the GOABC makes and we don't have the ability to sway government policy in the same organized manner of a consortium, such as the GOABC. What we do have is thousands of betrayed hunters with fire in our belly.

What I ask of you, my American brothers is to ask yourself how would you feel or react if a decision was made such as this in your state? Would you sit idly by or would you do something about it? PLEASE, we respectfully ask, that you do not book any hunts with members of the GOABC at the Reno convention next week or at any other time until this issue is resolved to the satisfaction of the B.C. residents. Remember the Yukon has stones sheep as well. For those interested in a bighorn hunt Alberta offers excellent guided opportunities.

Any individuals that is a member of a local fish and game club we encourage you to share this information with your fellow hunters. Anyone that is interested on more information on this travesty please contact me via pm or my email at bcreshunt@gmail.com.

If you do happen to find yourself on a guided hunt in B.C. this year, have no fear, you will be welcomed by the B.C. resident hunter as hunter and friend with common shared interests and values, however the man sitting beside you on the horse may have a very frosty welcome from this hunter. We do look forward to resolving this issue so that all of us can enjoy the amazing wildlife resource BC has to offer.

Please take some time to educate yourself on this issue by visiting the huntingbc.ca site and reading the various threads.

Finally, the lawyers are following our efforts and I'm afraid they may engage us residents with litigious law suits. So hear is my disclaimer. All comments are opinion only and I make no claim to the accuracy or completness of any facts or figures I have provided. As I said please educate yourself.

Last edited by kayjayess; 01/05/15 12:06 AM.
Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5519073 01/04/15 08:01 PM
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Erny Offline
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So your first post on this forum is bashing your government for increasing the quota for non residents to hunt in your Province. Than you request Texas hunters to do research and get involved. If you had done any research on Texas hunting at all you would have found out that there are no residency restrictions on tags both public and private. In fact our public draw system has absolutely no restrictions based on residency. Why would I be upset that BC wants me to have a reasonably priced tag a available to me? I am planning on a mountain goat hunt this fall in B.C. because my ability to draw tags in other US states is astronomically low because of the ludicrously low non resident quotas imposed by other US states. I am glad to see that BC government wants me to come hunt!!!

By the way welcome to the Forum, but I Suspect this was just a drive by post and you will never be heard from again.

Last edited by Erny; 01/04/15 08:45 PM.
Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5519080 01/04/15 08:06 PM
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I get what you mean mate and I do agree. I realise you've got nothing against international hunters coming over to hunt as well but also think of it like this. How would you feel if you've grown up in a country where you have no opportunity to hunt a certain animal (e.g. sheep, moose or whatever) and you just want to take one in your lifetime to achieve that goal and for it to be the pride and joy for the rest of your days. In some cases wouldn't that be better and worth more than to say a resident who just wants to shoot his annual one to hang up in the shed next to the other 20?

I'm sure the guides don't have that sentiment and are just seeing the dollar signs though.

The irony of that for me is I'd love nothing more to take a sheep or a moose before I die but no matter what the quota is I'm never going to be able to afford what they ask!


I prefer meat in it's original packaging.

JP Hunting - Australian big game guide and outfitter service.
Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5519087 01/04/15 08:11 PM
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I can understand your frustration.

As a U.S. citizen, I feel a similar frustration at the decision by many of our states to allocate 10% or less of their tags to non-residents of that state, especially considering much of the land hunted is owned by the federal government, which means every American owns it/pays for its upkeep.

On the face of it, it seems like the opposite problem but the underlying principle is the same-not having fair access to hunting opportunities supported by your own tax dollars.

But it is a complex issue. In America, the countervailing argument is that the individual states are responsible for wildlife management/upkeep. Which is true to a point (if you don't count federal lands/federal employees). Just seems that 10% or less is unfair.

I'm sure there are countervailing arguments on the issue you post about too. (Not enough animals to go around, high costs of concessions owned by the outfitters, more $$ brought in/economic impact of NR hunters benefiting all, etc.) 40% of the "elite" species does sound like a lot. Perhaps 25% across the board would be more in order. IDK. These are certainly thorny and controversial issues.

I have only hunted in B.C. once (Vancouver Island black bear) and was grateful for the opportunity. Whenever I am in another nation I am always mindful I am there as a guest only and my presence there is only possible because of the opportunity provided me by the host nation. And British Columbia is one of the most beautiful places on earth.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: Erny] #5519229 01/04/15 09:39 PM
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kayjayess Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Erny
So your first post on this forum is bashing your government for increasing the quota for non residents to hunt in your Province. Than you request Texas hunters to do research and get involved. If you had done any research on the Texas at all you would have found out that there are no residency restrictions on tags both public and private. In fact our public draw system has absolutely no restrictions based on residency. Why would I be upset that BC wants me to have a reasonably priced tag a available to me? I am planning on a mountain goat hunt this fall in B.C. because my ability to draw tags in other US states is astronomically low because of the ludicrously low non resident quotas imposed by other US states. I am glad to see that BC government wants me to come hunt!!!

By the way welcome to the Forum, but I Suspect this was just a drive by post and you will never be heard from again.


Erny, no drive by posting my friend and thank you for the welcome. You have me in that it is my first post! ;-)

Thank you for the educated and impassioned response Erny. I am certainly not upset about you hunting in BC, in fact I encourage it and I hope you have an excellent trip. Most BC resident hunters, in theory, support the guide industry and certainly welcome our American brothers to enjoy our wildlife resources. This is where I invited you to educate yourself on the reasons for not booking a hunt in BC until this new issue has become resolved. The huntingbc.ca site outlines these issues.

Two issues that have come up and they my friend are conservation related.

1) The BC government has opened up a General Open Season to Guides and resident hunters in one of our areas (Kootenay region). This was done, from what I understand, contrary to recommendations of the government's own Fish and Wildlife specialists. You have to ask yourself what kind of hunting opportunities will this offer me as a foreign hunter if there are unlimited tags for guided clients and resident hunters. This is one of the issues we are fighting the government on as it is anti-conservation and not a science based solution. For someone that is coming up here on a guided hunt this year, you may be fine, however the population will not sustain this pressure in the future and although it is a diminished opportunity for residents, foreigners will no longer enjoy that resource either.

The government unilaterally decided to remove most guide-outfitter bighorn sheep hunts in the Kootenay region off quota. Quota is a tool which limits the number of bighorn sheep guide-outfitters can harvest; it ensures conservation objectives are met and resident hunter priority is respected. By removing sheep from quota guide-outfitters are restricted only by the number of full curl sheep which exist in the sheep population. Guide-outfitters were placed on quota in the Kootenay region decades ago due to over-harvest of the bighorn sheep population on Mt. Broadwood.

Historically resident hunters have not harvested their allocation of bighorn sheep in the Kootenay Region; as a result the hunt has been managed on general open season throughout most of the region.

2) The reallocation policy with animals reallocated to guides is NOT from an abundance of game…these animals are being taken from the quota that had been assigned to resident hunters. In fact, we expect that the allocation for everyone will be reduced in coming years due to population concerns (especially on ungulates). This anticipated reduction of allocated animals compounds the impact of the larger % allocation for guides. We are concerned about the future of hunting for all individuals.

I was recently told that the number of non-resident hunters has decreased over the last 10 years. Now the government, at the urging of the Guide Outfitters, is guaranteeing them a ridiculously large part (much higher than most other hunting jurisdictions - obviously Texas not included) of the allowable annual harvest of game, I think there is no question more non-Canadian hunters will be attracted. As I am sure you are aware that the Guide Outfitting business has a much higher success rate then resident hunters as they have a plethora of dedicated resources including full time staff, infrastructure, and your money.

Again these are my opinion only, hence my encouragement for you to visit the site previously listed for your own research.

Thanks for the support and best of luck in your hunting endeavors in 2015. I do look forward to enjoying the mountains of BC in the future with my American friends and welcome you to our great province. I do however encourage you to do your research on these issues, hence the original post.

Last edited by kayjayess; 01/05/15 06:42 AM.
Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5520233 01/05/15 02:01 AM
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we in BC would be happy to have a draw system in place for non residents. Unfortunately the Guide outfitters of BC want to limit the number of non residents to keep the prices up.. MEANwhile they wish to monopolize the wildlife. Moose and elk , which I feed my family has the GOABC recieving 20-25 % of the harvest. which places me on a draw system for moose, meanwhile a non resident can take one out of my backyard every year. I am not against non residents, in fact I will be hunting in texas in feb for aduad. I am asking if you are considering coming to BC to ask your outfitter if he belongs to GOABC and secondly if they feel there allotment is aiding in conservation for the animals of BC..

Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5520270 01/05/15 02:17 AM
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Hey Ernie:

I like hunting and hunters and have no problem with hunters from other areas coming to BC to hunt. In fact, if I was visiting Texas (a state I really like, btw, having spent a fair bit of time there) and I bumped into someone like you who told me they had hunted my home province I'd dig it.

What I don't dig is a trade association that seems more interested in money than in long term hunting access for everyone. They appear to have engaged in some back room dealing and it's making a lot of people around here mad. We want to get the message out to fellow hunters.

Have a great time when you come up here, and I hope you're successful. Bring your long johns - it'll likely be a lot colder here!

Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5520287 01/05/15 02:24 AM
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You guys are in a tough position for sure. And a very unique position. Basically, you have all the dark Stone's sheep hunting in the world. Plus great moose, goat, and bear hunting. Rich economic resources folks all over the world are willing to pay huge $$$ for. Huge $$$ always complicate matters. Always. Makes people do funny things.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #5520623 01/05/15 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
You guys are in a tough position for sure. And a very unique position. Basically, you have all the dark Stone's sheep hunting in the world. Plus great moose, goat, and bear hunting. Rich economic resources folks all over the world are willing to pay huge $$$ for. Huge $$$ always complicate matters. Always. Makes people do funny things.


X2

Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: SheepHunter] #5520731 01/05/15 08:29 AM
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Erny, with all do respect, I don't see why you have your hackles up over and attempt to educate. I to am a B.C. resident and quite possibly engaging in a drive by posting. What other methods do a bunch of deeply concerned citizens have to voice their grievences if not on social media. We don't have money like the guide outfitters association of B.C. has and we have no means to influence government decision as they do. Tens of thousands of dollars have been donated to the LIBERAL government of B.C. from members of the GOABC.

Kayjayess has reached out to fellow sportsman who we share common interest and values with. I admire him for his effort, how many sheeple just stand by complain and never do anything. I have friends, family and co-workers who live in Texas and one thing I have always admired about Texans is they fight for what they believe in and not just do as the government tells you to do, ie. support for the NRA. This is something we Canadians can learn from you and is exactly what we few are attempting to accomplish now.

We don't want anybody to completely boycott hunting in Canada, in fact the opposite is true. I am sure you've done your research but there is fantastic hunting in other provinces, yes no goats possible in Alberta. Our beef is with guide outfitters who are members of the GOABC. There are many GO's that aren't members of this organization and if you have not booked your hunt yet I would suggest you book with one of them.

You said something to the effect.I am glad to see B.C. Government wants me to come hunt !!!. That may be true but the resident hunter isn't happy for you to come hunt !!! I guess we all choose sides and you choose the Liberal government of B.C. Now having said that if you have already booked your hunt fair game, I woudln't walk away from a hefty deposit either. In addition if you decide to continue with your dream goat hunt and we meet on the mountain, I will show you no ill will and I will engage with you like any other resident hunter with courtesy and respect. Maybe I'll brew you a coffee and we can talk policy and smashed feet.

sincerely,
Kawdy

Last edited by kawdy; 01/05/15 09:00 AM.
Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5521316 01/05/15 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: kayjayess
Dear fellow hunters,

I am a B.C. resident hunter and have been let down by my government. The GOABC (guide outfitters of B.C.) have succesfully lobbied the government of B.C. to dramatically increase their quota on certain species (big dollar animals) at the expense of the resident hunter. 40 % of sheep/grizzly and goat in the north have been allocated to the outfitters of the GOABC and up to 25 % of other species. Considering that the average allotment to non residents in the USA and Canada is between 5-10 % this hurts. We are concerned about the future of hunting for our children when commerical interest takes precedent over the citizens interest. We can't match the financial contributions to the government that the GOABC makes and we don't have the ability to sway government policy in the same organized manner of a consortium, such as the GOABC. What we do have is thousands of betrayed hunters with fire in our belly.

What I ask of you, my American brothers is to ask yourself how would you feel or react if a decision was made such as this in your state? Would you sit idly by or would you do something about it? PLEASE, we respectfully ask, that you do not book any hunts with members of the GOABC at the Reno convention next week or at any other time until this issue is resolved to the satisfaction of the B.C. residents. Remember the Yukon has stones sheep as well. For those interested in a bighorn hunt Alberta offers excellent guided opportunities.

Any individuals that is a member of a local fish and game club we encourage you to share this information with your fellow hunters. Anyone that is interested on more information on this travesty please contact me via pm or my email at bcreshunt@gmail.com.

If you do happen to find yourself on a guided hunt in B.C. this year, have no fear, you will be welcomed by the B.C. resident hunter as hunter and friend with common shared interests and values, however the man sitting beside you on the horse may have a very frosty welcome from this hunter. We do look forward to resolving this issue so that all of us can enjoy the amazing wildlife resource BC has to offer.

Please take some time to educate yourself on this issue by visiting the huntingbc.ca site and reading the various threads.

Finally, the lawyers are following our efforts and I'm afraid they may engage us residents with litigious law suits. So hear is my disclaimer. All comments are opinion only and I make no claim to the accuracy or completness of any facts or figures I have provided. As I said please educate yourself.



40% sounds like a pretty hefty set aside...

What was the prior set aside?

Also, do you know how many resident hunters will be denied tags with the new sytem?

Last edited by TonyinVA; 01/05/15 05:39 PM.
Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5521663 01/05/15 08:34 PM
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approx 5000 residents will go without tags. Prior to this allocation policy the guides were limited on bighorns to a historic annual average of 12 rams per year. Now it is general open season and goabc can shoot as many as they want. This isn't about stopping or not welcoming non residents.. its about fairness. GOABC's numbers of hunters has dropped 30% over the past decade.. resident hunters have gone up 20%, yet thru lobbying the goabc has been awarded a larger share of the resource than ever before.

Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5521931 01/05/15 10:54 PM
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It happens all over the world though and the word "fairness" can be quite subjective.

In Australia unless you can fork up $10k to hunt a buffalo or $15k to hunt a banteng every Canadian, American or any person anywhere else in the world is able to shoot as many as they can while someone such as myself will never be able to. Is that fair? That there are species in my own country that I'll never be able to hunt unless I'm wealthy enough to?

If you have to miss out every few years on a tag but can hunt every other year that sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I've just been drawn for Australia's hardest tag (hog deer), when I found out the guy on the phone said he'd been in for 25 years without being drawn. That to me is tough luck and bad draw odds, mind you it's equal odds regardless of whether you're a resident to my state or any other state in Australia. And game management is done by the state not federally so it's my tax dollars managing them not someone from another state.

It makes drawing harder but it's a system that says regardless of where you call home you should have as much right to hunt as anyone else, which to me is the definition of fairness.

I'd love to draw a hoggie tag every year and I could say "well they live in my state so why shouldn't I get them over someone from the other side of the country?" but then I just put myself in their shoes and it comes back to the example I mentioned with the buffalo, why should there be an animal in my own country that I or someone else can't hunt based on where I crawl into bed at night or money?

Honestly, I think I should be able to hunt BC, Alberta, the US or wherever unguided and only have to pay the tag and license fee the same as I believe anyone from overseas can hunt here unguided (which they can under supervision of a resident). I'm not saying every year but for something like a sheep or moose, I'd just like to take one in my lifetime and it's frustrating to know I'm never going to be able to afford that in two lifetimes.

If these laws decimate the populations of the animals then that's an issue. If it's like being here with the hoggies and every now and then you have to miss out (a lot more missing out than not in my case) then in the name of fairness it's something that you should be able to live with. Having said all that, 40% to guides resident or non seems way too high to me.


I prefer meat in it's original packaging.

JP Hunting - Australian big game guide and outfitter service.
Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: JPHunting] #5522278 01/06/15 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: JPHunting
It happens all over the world though and the word "fairness" can be quite subjective.

In Australia unless you can fork up $10k to hunt a buffalo or $15k to hunt a banteng every Canadian, American or any person anywhere else in the world is able to shoot as many as they can while someone such as myself will never be able to. Is that fair? That there are species in my own country that I'll never be able to hunt unless I'm wealthy enough to?

If you have to miss out every few years on a tag but can hunt every other year that sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I've just been drawn for Australia's hardest tag (hog deer), when I found out the guy on the phone said he'd been in for 25 years without being drawn. That to me is tough luck and bad draw odds, mind you it's equal odds regardless of whether you're a resident to my state or any other state in Australia. And game management is done by the state not federally so it's my tax dollars managing them not someone from another state.

It makes drawing harder but it's a system that says regardless of where you call home you should have as much right to hunt as anyone else, which to me is the definition of fairness.

I'd love to draw a hoggie tag every year and I could say "well they live in my state so why shouldn't I get them over someone from the other side of the country?" but then I just put myself in their shoes and it comes back to the example I mentioned with the buffalo, why should there be an animal in my own country that I or someone else can't hunt based on where I crawl into bed at night or money?

Honestly, I think I should be able to hunt BC, Alberta, the US or wherever unguided and only have to pay the tag and license fee the same as I believe anyone from overseas can hunt here unguided (which they can under supervision of a resident). I'm not saying every year but for something like a sheep or moose, I'd just like to take one in my lifetime and it's frustrating to know I'm never going to be able to afford that in two lifetimes.

If these laws decimate the populations of the animals then that's an issue. If it's like being here with the hoggies and every now and then you have to miss out (a lot more missing out than not in my case) then in the name of fairness it's something that you should be able to live with. Having said all that, 40% to guides resident or non seems way too high to me.


40% is high JPHunting. This is a huge difference from what the outfitting industry held before. In the interest of clarity, not all species allocations are at 40%. In my opinion industry received a windfall compared to their previous allocation. And this is after a framework and policy was negotiated earlier that was not near as lop sided in favor of industry, from what I understand.

Having said that we have some draws that residence will never ever hold, even before the new allocation split. One example of this is Roosevelt Elk. Some resident hunters in their retirement years have applied there whole life and never won a draw. With this new policy draws are even less frequent. Some residents are saying that Roosevelt Elk was a once in a lifetime draw. Now it's a once in two lifetime draw.

As a few of you have alluded, these animals are high value and are very marketable. Unfortunately our government is placing dollar signs on these resources which has affected the outcome of this new policy. Is it in the best interest of the wildlife in BC? I don't believe it is.

Last edited by kayjayess; 01/06/15 01:58 AM.
Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5527850 01/08/15 05:35 PM
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I remember a few years back when New Mexico changed their allotment of elk tags in certain areas allowing residents fewer and non residents the majority of tags. The residents raised a stink there as well but it didn't do any good. The reality for me is that it sucks that they charge so much for non resident tags that it makes it difficult to go to the state next door to hunt elk. Hell I can kill one on a ranch here in Texas as cheap or cheaper. Personally, I'll never be able to afford such an hunt as stone sheep (or want to) or moose (if I win the lottery) and only see them on the hunting shows. But if you are fighting big money and government you need to realize it's a long shot at best. God bless and good luck in your fight but I would lay odds most of us poor bastages here on THF aren't booking a BC hunt anyway.


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Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5527926 01/08/15 06:01 PM
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40% is high, but how many animals on the planet can demand a price tag of $40,000 like the stone sheep? I was lucky enough fulfill a lifetime dream and shoot a B.C. stone in 2013 – I didn’t pay $40K, but I did spend more on that hunt than any other hunt I’ve ever been on. The outfitter had plenty of horror stories of local hunters messing up guided hunts. I’m all for sharing the mountains (we had to adjust our hunting strategy because of a local hunter on my stone hunt), but the outfitter had plenty of stories of local hunters intentionally sabotaging guided hunts. From stories like planes flying low to ruin a final stock to stories of locals on horseback pushing sheep out of an area where they know a guided hunt is going on. Is the high $$$ complicating the situation? Of course it is! But I think there is an underlining issue of outfitters wanting to have more control over the areas they hunt. More importantly, more control over the high dollar, lower in population animals. I’m sure there are other/better ways to accomplish this, but I don’t agree the decision is to the detriment to overall game management.

Is that ‘unfair’ to the local hunter who wants to keep hunting the way they are used to? Yep, but join the party. Growing up in Utah, I could expect to draw a deer or elk tag in a premier area with 5 – 8 preference points. Now, you don’t have a chance if you have less than 18 preference points. This is essentially turning the premier hunting areas into a ‘once-in-a-lifetime’ hunt for the locals. And this is happening all over the western U.S. I know this is from increasing demand and not government regulation, but general hunting availability is not getting better with time. I live in Texas and would love to hunt a desert bighorn, but with draw odds of 1 in 2,000 that probably isn’t going to happen. New Mexico took drastic steps last year making it nearly impossible for nonresidents to draw tags (Nogalus Prairie’s point). It will be interesting to see how that situation plays out when the state sees how much money they will lose by making that choice. It will be interesting to see the effects of this in B.C. I know it is a challenge for outfitters to book all of their sheep tags each year. Maybe it will lower the crazy price tag…


Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5527981 01/08/15 06:21 PM
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That's what always cracks me up when folks talk about introducing new hunters to the "sport". More hunters, less land and game, is bad juju. And it's only going to get worse. It's already a pay to play game in many places.


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Re: Hunting in BC Canada? Please consider not booking [Re: kayjayess] #5530228 01/09/15 06:09 PM
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S
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4
Wow suprised to see this topic on here but sadly the original post was the truth. As a self employed taxidermist here in B.C. I rely on resident hunters success to pay bills and the game that walks here to feed my family. I don't want to upset anyone but the government does not make changes to the allocations to make my business "financally viable". FYI the GOABC, B.C. Wildlife federation and others signed an allocations policy a couple years ago and the government has NOT followed it! Is it your guys battle NO it's ours. I do support non resident hunting in our Province but not when mine and other families have to suffer because of it. I came down to Texas in Oct. and had an exellent time and enjoyed meeting so many great people and welcome you to our part of the world as well. Their is lots for everyone just need to divide the pie fairly! just my 2 cents!

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