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Water Dog vs Gun Dog #5487511 12/19/14 04:46 PM
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Not to spark the age old debate of what breed dog for what purpose, but I am picking up my GSP pup in the next few weeks. He will mainly be used for retrieving, but I want a GSP and they are such versatile dogs that its just going to fit the bill. My question for those who have read the books, which is better, or should I just pick both of them up? I will be doing my own training, I enjoyed the heck outta of with my lab before she passed and cant afford to send the pup off. Thanks in advance


Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5487559 12/19/14 05:07 PM
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I guess I didn't follow.

"My question for those who have read the books, which is better, or should I just pick both of them up?"

Should you pick up both what?

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5487692 12/19/14 06:07 PM
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If you are referencing the Wolters books you should probably skip both of them.
They are pretty much considered worthless.
If you want to start pup off right, work on obedience training, it is the best base for all training to follow.
I'm not a pointing guy so I'm not really sure of where to send you for specific advice.
What I would do is find a local pointing dog club and seek out advice from experienced members.
I have read the Bill Tarrant / Delmar Smith .. I think the title is something like "Best Way to Train your Gun Dog"?
I will say Delmar Smith knows dogs and his methods work.


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Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5487750 12/19/14 06:35 PM
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Get both Perfect Start/Perfect Finish and Delmar Smith's book. Like Blanco said obedience/yard work is the foundation to build on. Good luck with your new pup! What breeder are you getting him from?

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5487755 12/19/14 06:39 PM
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I also liked the ideas in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0eBekc1S4w

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5488202 12/19/14 11:41 PM
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Sorry for the confusion, but yes I was asking about boos and DVDs. Thanks for the info steering me away from wolters. My lab was a started dog so I skipped the puppy stage and basic obedience work. What would be the best material for things such as basic commands/yard work? I looked at the smartworks puppy program but the samples I saw I did not like


Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5488208 12/19/14 11:45 PM
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I have both books, and have found them extremely useful. I used Gun Dog to train a GSP; the results amazed me. That dog could do ANYTHING! He was retrieving birds for me at 8 weeks. THe birds were bigger than he was.

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5488211 12/19/14 11:48 PM
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First thing is your gsp is not a lab and shouldn't be trained as such. There seems to be already a focus on obedience and as such your really be detrimental to your puppy and his relationship with you.

Some one mentioned joining a club and I agree with that advice.

There is Joan Bailey how to help a gunfight train itself or something to that effect which I like


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5488221 12/19/14 11:58 PM
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I don't understand the question.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill


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Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: bill oxner] #5488300 12/20/14 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
I don't understand the question.


The question is: Which book is better Water Dog or Gun Dog?



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5488361 12/20/14 01:35 AM
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Water dog is probably the most read book on dog training ever. I used it and 5 minute retriever to train my dog. In over 5k birds dropped in front or behind her, she has yet to not recover one. I am not into the trial thing....I am into the having a good hunt and having a bird dog that will retrieve the birds. My dog was on hand signals at 6 months and I used the training on Water Dog to a "T" on this. My dog even picks up the decoys or anything else I tell her to do. She even picked up a kids plastic scooter from our HOA pond once. Should have seen the eyes on that mom when I sent my dog and she brought it back....made that little boys day too. Sorry to go off on a tangent......If Water Dog and Gun Dog techniques can't train your dog......get another dog.

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5488367 12/20/14 01:38 AM
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To answer the OP's question. I would start with Water Dog (since you will be using it for that) and then do Gun Dog. You will have a connection with your dog that no owner that sent their dog to a trainer will ever have. It is priceless and 99% will never send another dog off once they have done it themselves.

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5488680 12/20/14 05:14 AM
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I think the first thing you should do is seriously consider what you expect of your dog.
If the dog is just going to be a hunting buddy you can do that training yourself pretty easy.
If you will be hunting with other people or think you might like to attend some dog events you will likely be well served searching out a club and seeing what lil Blockhead is capable of. The folks in most clubs are pretty friendly and will help all that they can. They will help you avoid all the dumb beginner mistakes.


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Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5489260 12/20/14 05:56 PM
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I don't get all these people getting pointing breeds to do retriever work. Can a pointer retrieve...yes. Can it do it to a high level like a retriever...not a chance.

I agree with what a previous poster said about not trainning the dog like a retriever. Train it like a pointer but put a little more time and emphasis on the retrieving than most pointed owners would. As far as those books/DVDs go...there both outdated and there are much better materials out there.

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5489400 12/20/14 07:49 PM
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I guess you guys haven't been exposed to pointing labs


There is time, and you must take it, to lay your hand on your dog's head as you walk past him lying on the floor or on his settle, time to talk with him, to remember with him, time to please him, time you can't buy back once he's gone" GBE
Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: RayB] #5489534 12/20/14 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Barny Topwater
I guess you guys haven't been exposed to pointing labs


Same thing...a pointing Lab is not going to be a better pointer than a pointing breed.

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: huck18] #5489678 12/20/14 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: huck18
I don't get all these people getting pointing breeds to do retriever work. Can a pointer retrieve...yes. Can it do it to a high level like a retriever...not a chance.


Some of us buy the versatile breeds because we want more than just a retriever.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5489977 12/21/14 02:05 AM
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What's high level? There are plenty of versatile breeds that are titled in HRC. High level in retriever hunt test no.


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5489991 12/21/14 02:16 AM
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Amongst everybody's' opinions, dogs really haven't changed much. Yes, there is much more updated and structured programs to advancing your dog. That said, there is also something to be said for a bit of common sense. Wolters' gives you a different perspective. Nothing more, nothing less. There is NOT only one way to train a dog...no matter what you want for an end product or hunting buddy!


"Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."
Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5490102 12/21/14 03:29 AM
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Just a little food for thought.... In my opinion it does matter what you will primarily be doing with the dog. As an example with retrieving we place primary importance on being by our side. We convey that heel is a safe zone and the pup won't want to venture far. A flushing dog we want to teach medium range, about what you feel comfortable shooting. A pointer may be taught longer range. Go out, find game, and slam on point. Keep this in mind when determining what method you start with because it very well may effect the outcome.


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Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5490301 12/21/14 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: huck18
I don't get all these people getting pointing breeds to do retriever work. Can a pointer retrieve...yes. Can it do it to a high level like a retriever...not a chance.


Says the man who owns a Versatile Spaniel that holds one of that breed's first AKC retriever titles. whistle

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5490341 12/21/14 12:02 PM
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I think we have drifted off subject a bit...
Baylor Bears is getting a GSP and wants to train pup himself.
Here is my best advice, When you are training your pup, make the lesson like a game. Don't let young block head know he is being molded into hunting machine. Stimulate his prey drive when you can, and most important of all don't overdo the training in one session. Make the youngster relish the time he spends with you and use that time to advance his training.
Most important, limit the time you spend on any one lesson. You didn't go from Kindergarten to University in one year. Training takes time and patience.
There is plenty of good training material out there, and it sound like you want a versatile dog?
Seek out a versatile club, show up and train with them and ask a billion questions.
You can do it on your own but you must learn patience and persistence.


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Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Blanco] #5492155 12/22/14 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: Blanco
I think we have drifted off subject a bit...
Baylor Bears is getting a GSP and wants to train pup himself.
Here is my best advice, When you are training your pup, make the lesson like a game. Don't let young block head know he is being molded into hunting machine. Stimulate his prey drive when you can, and most important of all don't overdo the training in one session. Make the youngster relish the time he spends with you and use that time to advance his training.
Most important, limit the time you spend on any one lesson. You didn't go from Kindergarten to University in one year. Training takes time and patience.
There is plenty of good training material out there, and it sound like you want a versatile dog?
Seek out a versatile club, show up and train with them and ask a billion questions.
You can do it on your own but you must learn patience and persistence.


Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. Thanks to you yall, Blanco is pretty much right. I love the versatility of the GSP and that's why I picked the breed after countless hours of research. Im not going to do trials or anything like that, I just want to have a well mannered dog that can pick up birds, and hunt like he is bred to do. From what Ive gathered the books Ive mentioned are not highly regarded, which Im very glad to know. Guess its back to the interweb for some good material on puppy programs and basic obedience training for when the pup is ready


Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: kindall] #5492518 12/22/14 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: kindall
Originally Posted By: huck18
I don't get all these people getting pointing breeds to do retriever work. Can a pointer retrieve...yes. Can it do it to a high level like a retriever...not a chance.


Some of us buy the versatile breeds because we want more than just a retriever.


Look at the OP. He said he is looking for a retriever. As far as "versatile breeds" that's just marketing to me. Any good hunting dog is versatile if trained to be. Retrievers can be good upland flushers as well as search and rescue or trailing dogs. All breeds are versatile...a good dog is a good dog.

Re: Water Dog vs Gun Dog [Re: Baylor_Bears] #5492613 12/22/14 03:40 PM
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From his post.
He will mainly be used for retrieving.

While some people like flusher, others want a dog that points upland game.
Then use the same dog for waterfowl, and dove.
I don't see why his choice of dogs would matter to other people.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


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