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Mar 25th, 2012
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WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season #5486985 12/19/14 06:12 AM
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Well, I made a trip to the Gene Howe WMA yesterday to get a little quail work in for my dogs, and they had posted hand-written signs on the door of the registration shack notifying users that they had begun their annual predator control program on the area. That is to say that they have placed LETHAL baited snares on the public quail hunting area during hunting season. Their quail season ends January 31, but they feel the time to trap coyotes is now according to their now-deleted facebook post. That's right folks, I made inquiries on their facebook page, and the post was later deleted. I am literally appalled that they would put hunting dogs in danger during season, and will be contacting TPWD with a formal complaint, as well as my State Senator. I would love to know what you guys think?

Billy G

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5487150 12/19/14 01:33 PM
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If it's true, I agree, that's b.s.


Originally Posted by bill oxner
Haven't had it in years but never spit any out.
Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5487959 12/19/14 08:38 PM
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This is a common complaint in many other states in areas with bird hunters. Even more so with people who are trappers as a hobby not just the fish and game wardens. Many of the bird hunters carry necessary tools to get there dogs out of the traps in an emergency and purchase the traps to practice on. So it can be anybody setting traps if they follow guidelines. How to decide if lethal or no lethal can and where to use is a good question. I wonder how the deer for example are not at risk for the lethal traps. But texas is not alone

Last edited by blanked; 12/19/14 08:42 PM.
Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5488044 12/19/14 09:25 PM
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Thanks for the heads up, we planned on taking a trip there next month. Glad we didn't drive 5 hours only to find out this info. One would think they could wait until after bird season. Guess we will go to Matador instead, too bad I heard the numbers really rebounded at Gene Howe this year.

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5489984 12/21/14 02:09 AM
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Can you post the link - I'll be happy to make some noise

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: bassfishinglawyer] #5490014 12/21/14 02:30 AM
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Even if they posted the information I would think the liability issues would be astronomical if someone lost a good dog because of trapping during the season (I would never turn a dog loose if I knew there were leg traps out). You either trap or bird hunt, but not both.

Last edited by Chet; 12/21/14 02:32 AM.
Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5490157 12/21/14 04:10 AM
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I was up there hunting when they put those traps in and got to bs-ing with one of the biologist. Super nice guy. They're working real hard so we have birds to hunt. But, it's a wildlife management area we are allowed to hunt not a personal hunting preserve provided by the state. They had signs up and weren't trapping in the prime bird pastures. There was plenty of other areas to safely run a dog and find birds. Cut em some slack.

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5490290 12/21/14 06:40 AM
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I couldn't disagree with you more flyaholic. When they are putting bird dogs in jeapardy they are wrong plain and simple. Those traps are more likely to catch a lost dog than a wiley coyote. If I had a nickel for every time I helped a wayward dog back to his owner on that place I could buy us all a coke at the dq, so the chances of a bird dog winding up in one of those traps is real. Forget about any actual need for the trapping; it could easily wait until Feb 1. I thought they were pretty good ol' boys too...until this. I have unhappily watched them reduce and remove hunting opportunities on the Gene Howe and the Matador for the last 10 years as they have moved from a bird hunter friendly mindset to a "quality deer for a few" mentality without criticism or complaint, but this crosses a line for me. I think it shows that they either don't know enough about the sport the manage or don't care about YOUR dogs. I really, really can't believe they don't have any concern for our dogs. I guess you might be able to tell I'm aggravated.

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5490384 12/21/14 12:58 PM
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run in to this on a lease once was told by foreman his sons traps they were more important than my money so he traps i guess but without my money!!!!!!!!!!


hrn
Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5490493 12/21/14 02:51 PM
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I trap and have a little insight. I see no reason for a lethal snare. A relaxing lock snare will work just fine, and whatever you catch will be waiting for the trapper to decide if it is dispatched or not.
Properly done leghold traps will not harm a bird dog. The exception being a drowning set, I personally do not use those. Snares will have a 'deer stop' that prevents the snare from closing small enough to catch a deer foot.
Trappers and bird hunters can co-exist. I have never caught a dog in 12 years, but the possibility is there. When I or his owner release him he will be fine, I have released baby coons about the size of my hand with no injury. When you are snakeproofing your dog make him trap shy too.

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5491165 12/21/14 10:35 PM
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THEY aren't putting our dogs in danger when daily registration is required and there's a big sign at the check-in station telling us what areas have traps. If you run dogs in those pastures then YOU are putting your dogs in danger.

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5491543 12/22/14 12:58 AM
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Wow fly, you've never found a lost bird dog 2 Pastures over from his owner? Maybe not...but I have. I've hunted along with lost dogs (mostly setters;-) on many occasions up on the Gene Howe, and even more on the Matador. I even lost my brothers dog last year for a while. If there had been coyote traps out I would've been sick! I'm really not trying to be rude, but it sounds like maybe you hunt with Labradors or some other close-working breed? The chances of losing track of a dog are actually much greater this year than any time in the past 45 years (according to one regular hunter up there) on this place due to the extreme height of the cover in the sand hills. If you don't think a dog could easily get into one of those traps from another pasture or even a neighboring ranch you lack experience...hovercat, I appreciate the constructive insight into trapping. I am hoping they are using relaxing lock snares, but what they relayed to me before breaking contact was that "the snares are potentially lethal". I'm sure that was my fault-I was immediately upset when I got the typical TPWD obstinate-style rhetoric. As a trapper, do you see any reason why December-January would be more effective than February-March? If I wind up back up there I plan to stay upwind of those areas. Too bad they set them in some of the most reliable late season pastures.

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5491599 12/22/14 01:27 AM
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Out of curiosity, how many pastures did they say now have traps in them?


A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5491976 12/22/14 03:54 AM
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Kgbill, your logic is flawed and you've missed the point (pun intended). By your train of thought I guess the state should block traffic on the road on the remote chance you lose a dog and gets hit by a car. Come on, man.

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5492101 12/22/14 05:20 AM
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If I'm hunting a WMA I shouldn't have to worry about my dogs getting into coyote traps, plain and simple. They have from Feb. 1st - the 4th weekend of October to trap. If they want the coyotes home so bad, start letting people hunt them. I don't care if the areas are marked. Shouldn't even be a concern.

Fly- your last analogy was way off and kind of dumb. He's not hunting a road, he's hunting habitat suitable to hunt with bird dogs, they can become disoriented or get out of range, he's not hunting an area cars come flying through at high speeds. Find a better analogy.


Say When.....
Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5492154 12/22/14 06:21 AM
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Aww fly, it's okay. I completely understand your entirely human need to defend anything a guy you met in passing decides to do simply because you made a quick judgment that he was a "Super nice guy". I'm sure that deep down, subconsciously, you feel that anything less would impune your judgement. Hey, I thought Jamie was a nice guy too. I was told he's a former Army Ranger, and for that I have the greatest appreciation and deepest respect. I'm still quite sure that he is a nice guy. But I do believe he made this decision hastily, and more out of consideration for his guys' boredom than a pressing need to reduce coyote numbers. I believe that he too is succumbing to the entirely human need to defend His judgment, no matter how bad the decision. I myself don't care if he's Superman, I'll call him on it when my ox is gettin' gored. If you study quail ecology and management at all you will quickly discover that it is all about habitat, and no amount of predator control will increase quail numbers if there is a deficit in it. It's not like there are any calves to protect. If there is pressure coming from the neighbors, then the needs of the paid and permitted hunters need to be seen to before his good standing in the TCFA community. I believe you have it wrong. That area belongs to us, bought and paid for with the dollars of the sportsmen of The Great State of Texas, and the Tpwd should be operating it like they are employed by us plain and simple. Hunting this place is, in fact, a right that anyone who purchases a licence and permit can exploit to the fullest extent of the regulations set forth by the Tpwd for the area.

Last edited by kgbill; 12/22/14 06:28 AM. Reason: Grammar 😉
Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5492157 12/22/14 06:31 AM
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Cinchman hit the nail on the dadgum head!

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: Flyaholic] #5492174 12/22/14 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: Flyaholic
THEY aren't putting our dogs in danger when daily registration is required and there's a big sign at the check-in station telling us what areas have traps. If you run dogs in those pastures then YOU are putting your dogs in danger.


I agree with you only if the information about the trapping dates and pastures being trapped are published in the APH book in advance, so that hunters can know what they are going to encounter before driving across the state to hunt there. IMHO to not do and let it instead be every hunter's surprise at the gate is a huge PR fail on that WMA's manager.

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5495110 12/23/14 04:26 PM
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With a lot of the logic here, TP&W might as well put out traps in neighborhoods to trap coyotes - so long as they told you they were doing it, it would be okay. Dogs, cats, and kids would be mere collateral damage. hammer

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5518772 01/04/15 04:57 PM
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I find this odd. The latest research from A&M and RPQRR indicates that coyotes are good for quail populations as they are predatory toward skunks, raccoons and hogs (major quail predators) more than they are toward quail. I would think they would want to be advanced in practice

http://www.quailresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Abstract_2012.pdf

https://repositories.tdl.org/ttu-ir/handle/2346/47488

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5519195 01/04/15 09:16 PM
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Yep, I am curious what they are doing and why. I also wonder what "lethal baited snare" is. M44s are baited, but they are not snares. Collarum snares are baited with a similar trigger as M44s, but are live catch and designed to be non lethal to coyote or dog. If someone hunts up there, take a picture of the sign and post it up. Or if anyone talks to the WMA staff, ask and give us a report please.

From http://www.1001prairies.com/genehowewma

‘A major problem lies in the holdover of faith in management techniques that have proven ineffectual in the past. The most widely advocated of these is the close-the-season-stop-all-hunting approach. Another is the stocking of non-habitable range with pen-reared bobwhites. Still another is predator control. None of these works in deficient habitat and none are needed where the habitat is right. Such apparently easy solutions cripple effective management and merely repeat past failures.’ (Jackson, p12).

‘Predator control is not the simple or practical cure-all it appears to be. It is more complex because of the interrelationships between the predatory species themselves. Predators prey on each other a great deal more than is generally realized. Marsh hawks commonly feed on rodents that compete for the bobwhites' food. Red-tailed hawks commonly feed their young on snakes that, in the Rolling Plains, are the worst offenders in robbing nests. Both coyotes and horned owls preyed on skunks on the study areas and fed far more often on the species of rodents capable of destroying quail eggs.’ (Jackson, p70).

Perhaps they have forsaken Quail to manage Turkey. There is one study which included Gene Howe that did show Coyotes may have an impact on Turkey populations.
http://www.carnivoreconservation.org/files/thesis/houchin_2005_msc.pdf



Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5519679 01/04/15 11:42 PM
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it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5526392 01/08/15 12:21 AM
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UPDATE: I went back yesterday, and there were no signs up. While I was there, I was contacted by my state senator's office, and then a gentleman introducing himself as Tpwd Director (I can't remember his name, but we had a great visit) to let me know that they have removed the traps everywhere except at the manager's house. It seems that his house dogs had a run-in with a coyote, and that was the impetus for the trapping decision. It's great to see this positive response from Tpwd, as well as from Kel Seliger!

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5530413 01/09/15 07:31 PM
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Wow. Not often a common sense decision is made anymore. This is a rare one

Re: WMA Sets LETHAL Coyote Traps During Quail Season [Re: kgbill] #5530498 01/09/15 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bill oxner
Haven't had it in years but never spit any out.
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