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Mar 25th, 2012
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7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep #5320780 09/22/14 11:15 PM
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TonyinVA Offline OP
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Okay, to start of I want to state that I am going to share some information and photos PURELY for the purpose of sharing data....and then I would be interested to hear some comments particularly from some of the folks who breed sheep.

I ran across a place in PA called Warrior Mark (http://warriorsmark.com/wm/bighornsheep)that is claiming to have 7/8 California Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep. They have this to say about how they acquired the sheep:

"Yes, it's true. These sheep were originally purchased in 1968 from a wealthy Pittsburgh philanthropist who has been experimenting with Big Horn and Dall varieties. He wanted to breed animals that could survive and remain healthy in the wilds of the Pennsylvania mountains. By 1968 he had succeeded, but has lost interest in continuing the project any further. Our location is in west-central Pennsylvania. The elevation averages around 1700 ft. above sea level. Our winters can get as cold as 20 below zero and our summers can get up to 100+ degrees. These factors could easily be handled by pure bred Bighorn and Dall sheep, however, the dampness of our climate and low elevation in this eastern area causes pneumonia in pure breed mountain sheep. Such animals cannot live here. Our sheep are not pure blooded but specially bred to survive in this environment. They are approximately 7/8 pure Bighorn and Mountain Dall sheep. These sheep are rare hybrids that thrive and reproduce in our climate. Do not confuse our Mountain Dall Sheep with the common Texas Dall sheep, our sheep are direct descendants of the Dall sheep in Alaska and Western Canada. Our Bighorn sheep are descended from the Bighorns of the western rocky mountains.

Come to our preserve to enjoy a sheep hunt in the beautiful Allegheny mountains. Our property covers 2700 acres of rolling, open and forested terrain which include different areas for hunting big game and upland birds. You will be accompanied on your hunt by an experienced guide but you will select your own trophies. You can choose to hunt with rifle, handgun, archery or black powder. You can also choose the style of hunt you want, spot and stalk or hunting from ground blinds or elevated stands. When you book a hunt with us your party will be the only hunters afield as we only take one group at a time.

All hunts are professionally guided by one of our experienced staff who work hard to insure you have a superb hunting experience."

Here are some pictures they sent me. Not the best, but it's all I have to share. I am skeptical that they are 7/8 anything...look like they are a bighorn cross but not sure about the Dall sheep part.






Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5320839 09/22/14 11:42 PM
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Looks like they have a lot of Mouflon in them to me and you can't 7/8 one thing and 7/8 another. Maybe 7/8 Mouflon and 1/8 Rocky Mountain Bighorn. Baker

Last edited by Elkhunter49; 09/22/14 11:43 PM.

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Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5320850 09/22/14 11:46 PM
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TonyinVA Offline OP
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The Claim is that the darker rams are 7/8 Calif Bighorn and the Lighter ones are 7/8 Dall.

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5320857 09/22/14 11:49 PM
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Look like a bunch of mutts to me.


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Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5320888 09/23/14 12:07 AM
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For hybrids they don't look bad but I wouldn't believe them not saying they are wrong but a lot of places in the northeast and Midwest exotic "ranches" give the HF hunting industry a bad name.

It's up to your senses I guess.

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5320897 09/23/14 12:13 AM
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TonyinVA Offline OP
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Here are some shots from their "Trophy Gallery ..and remember they are up front claiming these are hybrids not pure anything.





"

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5320914 09/23/14 12:20 AM
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I'm seeing quite a bit of mouflon in those sheep..

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5320962 09/23/14 12:44 AM
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Several of the darker ones look like the have a decent percentage of Bighorn by their mass and the way they carry that mass through the entire curl. I think they would make a decent mount, the Dall crosses, just don't look right.


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Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: nsmike] #5321017 09/23/14 01:10 AM
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This is mixed breed junk plain and simple. What percentages...who knows

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5321089 09/23/14 01:43 AM
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TonyinVA Offline OP
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Remember that Texas Dalls and Black Hawaiians are "mixed breed" ...and both have Mouflon in their bloodline

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5321117 09/23/14 01:55 AM
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If they were 7/8 mountain sheep wouldn't they be heavier bodied? They look too small bodied to me to be anything other than just mouflon crossed up who's your daddy rams to me.

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5321136 09/23/14 02:00 AM
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The claim is they weigh 150 - 200 pounds....which is light for a real bighorn but heavy for a Mouflon.

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5321154 09/23/14 02:02 AM
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They certainly might have some bighorn, dall, or wild sheep blood in them, but definately have a significant amount of Corsican and Corsican color variations in them. 7/8ths I would struggle with too - not much showing back to the supposed core breed other than some of their horns.

Looks to me like someone got ahold of a bighorn ram and put them on some ewes of various kinds and let it go for several generations (which won't get you 7/8ths unless you culled the first two generations of offspring and original dams out of the herd).

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5321184 09/23/14 02:13 AM
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TonyinVA Offline OP
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Txnrog,

I agree there must be bighorn in them .. how much who knows..I was pretty impressed with the mass of the light colored ram in the center of the first pic in the original post.

I don't have a problem with people crossing sheep species as long as they don't try and misrepresent what they have. Right now a lot of folks in Texas are going with Transcaspian Urial Hybrids to get bigger sheep and longer horns. Is that good or bad? Everyone will have an opinion.

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5322188 09/23/14 05:23 PM
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I talked to them almost 20 years ago. Back then you could see some that looked a lot like bighorn, but 1 out of 10 would look just like a mouflon. Most all of them have mouflon shaped horns.


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Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5322223 09/23/14 05:45 PM
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very pretty hybrid sheep...but the owners definitely have mountain dall sheep confused with texas dall sheep and there is definitely corsican and mouflon blood in them.

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5322452 09/23/14 08:07 PM
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TonyinVA Offline OP
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Rickey,

I figured or Don might know something about these. I recall seeing the preserve as I drove past it years ago....been their a while. I do not think the people who own it now are sheep breeders so they probably are not selectively breeding to keep the California Bighorn look, etc. As for whether or not they ever had any Dall sheep.....I really wont hazard a guess. When I originally spoke to the owner he said the bloodline was Bighorn and European Mouflon (which I believe) and Alaskan Dall and Mouflon (and I am not going to call a man a liar because a lot can happen to sheep over a few decades).

But clearly by looking at the ear size/shape and the really short tails....there is a lot of wild sheep still there but I think because of the lack of selective breeding these sheep degraded a bit. That said, you can see some tremendous mass on one or two of these rams. Regarding the color, these are not that different from other bighorn hybrids that I have seen pictures of. I also noticed they did not have that classic Mouflon white saddle.

All and all I thought it would be an interesting bit of information to post and share. I personally was surprised at some of the negative comments. Tough crowd here.

As an FYI, he was looking for $3000 to hunt them..... so not a bad price IMHO.

Re: 7/8 Calif Bighorn Sheep and 7/8 Mountain Dall Sheep [Re: TonyinVA] #5322454 09/23/14 08:08 PM
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meant to say "you or Don"

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