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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261181 08/19/14 01:43 PM
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Guys,
I am a manufacturer's rep for one of the largest lighting manufacturers in the WORLD.
I sell lighting products through distribution. ie: Elliott, Dealers, Wholesale, CED, Rexel, Reynolds, Parrish Hare, etc. I make a living by doing lighting design, layout, and cost analysis of lighting packages for various applications.. I won't sell directly to end users, home owners, etc..

Let me dispel a few myths about lighting (LED specifically):
1. Most "retrofit, savings companies, renovation companies (as listed above)", negate the UL rating of light fixtures, when they install their imported product into your existing fixtures.. They refer to changing your existing T5, T8 lamps, to a LED replacement lamp, which removes the ballast from the circuit. If you change the wiring inside of a fixture, you have then removed the UL compatibility. That's the reason many larger companies, who are concerned with liability coverages (after the retrofit), won't use retrofit products. There are a few exceptions. Ones that maintain the ballast and existing wiring in the fixtures... But the ONLY savings there is maintenance costs. You're still driving the ballast (which is the load), and you just won't have to replace the lamp very often. Let me repeat- ANY "KIT" WHICH CHANGES THE INTEGRAL WIRING OF A FIXTURE, NEGATES THE UL RATING.

2. While LED technology is awesome, and new products are being introduced everyday; LED is NOT a viable option for all scenarios. Let me elaborate... Only the big brand name manufacturers (Hubbell, Cooper, Lithonia, Crouse Hinds) make any LED fixture that is usable above 50 degree C, (122 degree F)... You might think that's no big deal... But ANY manufacturing facility that's not climate controlled, will typically exceed ambient temp.. The big manufacturers I named above have some fixtures rated for higher ambient ratings, a few even have a 65 degree C fixture (149 degrees F). But believe it or not, there are many facilities where this isn't adequate. In instances like that, HID (metal halide) is still the only real solution. These retrofit companies will go in and tout their products, advertise some huge savings, get the job, get their install done, then poof... they disappear. I am dealing with "cleaning up" after one of these retrofit guys, at the LARGEST manufacturer in Lufkin, TX, right now.. They sold them a bill of goods.. And it's not performing as promised.

3. While "shopping" for LED fixtures and lamps, don't be mislead by "replaces *****". Many manufacturers will tell you that a 30 watt wall pack fixture, will replace a 400 watt metal halide wall pack. Well, I guess they are correct in a way.. A Yugo would replace a Cadillac Escalade too.. But you won't be happy with the performance of that replacement. While 5000 lumens (measure of usable light @ surface) will likely perform similar to a 9000 lumen, metal halide fixture; You CAN NOT replace a 14000 mean lumen metal halide fixture, with a 1100 lumen LED chip, and expect satisfactory performance.. Just make sure of what you're buying.

4. There are only a few LED chip manufacturers overseas.. Most all of the knock off, small brands, use one of those Chinese manufacturers' chips.. The major manufacturer I represent, owns our own chip manufacturing facility. As does a couple of the other big names.

5. Warranty is great.. Just make sure that the manufacturer of the product you buy, will be around to honor the warranty..

6. We have done several LED replacement projects in East Texas already. While the benefit is there; for a large project, we are seeing about 1.9-2.7 year payback for the projects. Including fixture costs, installation costs, maintenance savings, energy savings, and rebates.
I just did a replacement project where we replaced 188- 400 watt metal halide Hi Bays, with 188- 160 watt LED fixtures (1 for 1 replacement). This is a new fixture.. NOT A RETROFIT KIT.. It has better performance @ the work surface, 5 year no question warranty, modular component replacement, true color rendering; and the payback was 19 months. In climate controlled facilities, that fixture was great, As the housing only reaches 20 degrees over ambient.. Where the typical Metal Halide fixture would get 50-70 degrees above ambient.
7. While there is considerable energy savings in using LED fixtures for site lighting, wall packs, pole mounted fixtures, etc.; the biggest savings for those type of products comes from reduced (or non existent) maintenance costs.. Typical metal halide pole fixtures, should have the lamps replaced every 2 years.. The cost of bucket trucks, electricians, etc., for lamp and ballast maintenance, can add up very quickly. But with LED, it's truly an "install and forget it" deal, for 5-10 years..

We could go on all day... But as the old saying goes: If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is..

I'll gladly answer any questions anyone has about LED lighting, or lighting in general.

Last edited by DTCOOPER; 08/19/14 01:45 PM. Reason: spelling.. may have missed some more.

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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261215 08/19/14 02:04 PM
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I've gotten to where I'm usually asleep by 9:30 PM anyway. I don't need no stinkin' lights.

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261216 08/19/14 02:04 PM
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DT, why is it when I purchase a led with a comparable lumen to an cfl or incandescent it still seems like the led isn't near as bright? Also what color (or brand) of led is closest to an incandescent? The price is bearable to me except for when they cost more and I can't see a dang thing. Thank you sir.

If you aren't allowed to post a brand on here to due conflict then feel free to PM me a brand.

Last edited by grout-scout; 08/19/14 02:05 PM. Reason: Auto correct is not so good
Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261242 08/19/14 02:19 PM
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DTCOOPER, That's good info!!! I'm building a 30x50 shop and will be installing lighting in about a month. Can you point me in the right direction on lighting?

Thanks

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261299 08/19/14 02:46 PM
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LED is a "point of source" light.. lamp manufacturers typically measure lumen output @ the source.. (right next to the chip).
They don't measure light levels @ the work surface.. Being an LED, the light comes out in a predetermined pattern, and ONLY goes that direction.. You can truly make a square beam spread of light, with an LED.. Where a standard CFL, incandescent, or HID lamp will put light out "all around" itself. That's great, in that with LED, I can put a pole on the property line, and have ZERO light hitting the sidewalk or the neighbors house.. But LEDs must be spaced and laid out correctly, to provide an even pattern of light throughout the area. Many mfrs will use a refractor or reflector in conjunction with their chips, to try and "fool" your eyes into seeing an even pattern of light.. But that's a "band aid" at best..
As far as brands of LED lamps- Phillips makes some good LED lamp products (I have NOTHING to do with Phillips)..
Many manufacturers who were early on the scene to LED fixtures just took a regular old HID fixture, and stuck some LED chips in them... They actually did a disservice to people, as the optics of the fixture weren't designed around an LED light source. Are you saving energy? yes. definitely.
Are you getting equal or adequate light out of that fixture? Definitely not.. Nothing near what you'd get our of a fixture designed around an LED chip light source.
LED lamps are typically not good.. That's why none of the fixture mfrs I represent use "retrofit" LED lamping in their products..


Daniel
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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261308 08/19/14 02:50 PM
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Hancock,
I could do a layout for you.. Send me a PM with specifics.. dimensions, mounting height, color of walls and floor, "typical" work plane height, etc., and I'll do a layout for you using a few different options. Then if you wanted to use the products, I can hook you up with a wholesale distributor in your area to sell you the fixtures..


Daniel
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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261374 08/19/14 03:36 PM
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I think most people that replied earlier missed the point. Just trying to tell you what is available for business owners and whats going to happen in the near future.. Didn't mean to insult the beloved incandescent light bulbs. For the record, incandescent light bulbs are always going to be the best light. They are the closest equivalent that you can have to the sun which of course is what all light is compared to. Why? Because incandescent light is a literal burning wick that puts off burning wick style light. That is why 90% of the power you use to burn those lights is turned into heat.

This is all besides the point anyway. I should have called this thread "incentives available for your businesses." Which is what I was trying to get across to you. I was not going for an all out war on what type of light bulb is better and who likes what color. I recommend installing everything from t-5 to t-8 to CFL to LED, whatever... the whole point is to save power and get the electricity company to write you a check to do so. Essentially everyone in the state qualifies and the 20 million dollars that they are giving away for people to become more energy efficient is draining quickly. Not to mention that everyone who pays an electricity bill is already paying into this pot so you might as well take advantage.

My role in this is to just help people acquire their incentives... Makes no difference to me what light you wanna use but I can give recommendations.

Last edited by GuidedHunter; 08/19/14 03:50 PM.
Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261433 08/19/14 03:57 PM
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Hancock, Your situation probably calls for a good set of T-5 fluorescents all day.. They are cheap and have the best light output for high up places like shops. Whoop super expensive LED high bays out of the water. Sounds like Cooper guy has you covered.

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261497 08/19/14 04:33 PM
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Guided Hunter...
First you come in saying that you've been "talking to Rotary Clubs and Chambers of Commerce" blah blah blah...
Then you talk about how you can save money through retrofits..
Rotary clubs are a "collection" of clubs, who accept donations, to effect positive changes in communities.. Not sure why you'd be talking to them? And Chambers of Commerce.. They're nothing more than a group of local businesses (who charge for membership and participation)... I'm not certain what type of validity that opening statement should have garnered you.
Then after a few people bite back, you say that all you're interested in doing is saving them money.. No.. You're in business for the same reason anyone is: to make money. I don't fault you for that. But don't espouse to only be in it for the benefit of "other folks"..
With that said, if you're trying to sell a service or product, then list it in the classifieds.


As far as Hancock's new shop: there are several LED fixtures which could be a good fit for his scenario.. A new installation would be the time to use LED, very much over fluorescent lighting.. You can buy an LED hi bay for about twice the price of a good 6 lamp T5 high bay, have no maintenance costs, about 1/3 the energy consumption, and very good color rendition for a shop environment..

I'm not trying to bust your chops, Guided Hunter... But these guys don't like snake oil salesmen.. Not saying you are one.. Just don't wear the shoe if it doesn't fit.


Daniel
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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261560 08/19/14 05:20 PM
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This thread is starting to remind me of the time I asked about radiant barrier paint...

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: Choctaw] #5261588 08/19/14 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Choctaw
I've gotten to where I'm usually asleep by 9:30 PM anyway. I don't need no stinkin' lights.


Same here, we don't use the lights very often.

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5261597 08/19/14 05:35 PM
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Back in the day, my grandma refused to use the lights. She'd walk around with one of those old everready flashlights. Never saw her flip a wall switch in that house.

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5262600 08/20/14 01:52 AM
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bs all the LEDs I've bought recently dies BEFORE a 3 year old CFL I had.

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5262870 08/20/14 03:28 AM
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Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back.
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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: Gravytrain] #5263473 08/20/14 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gravytrain
Originally Posted By: coolie76
I like my lightbulbs the way they are.


Good old incandescents. LED light does not look right unless it's
in your pool/patio setup. But everyday indoor living no way I'm buying
anything but incandescent.


X2

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5263524 08/20/14 04:15 PM
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COOPER I talk to Rotary clubs and Chambers because they are the ones that qualify for the incentives. (not all chambers will let you speak if you are not a member, but some will) Just saying that for the most part Buildings built 20 years ago have older fluorescent technology. Those bulbs are being phased out. So since they are not going to be around in the upcoming years Incentive programs were put into place so that owners of buildings could make the change with less of a hit to their pocket books.

Hopefully this thread will die now. I'm gonna go read about hunting stuff.

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5263578 08/20/14 04:46 PM
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I bought cfls for every light in my house three years ago. Maybe had one or two go out.
Moved out of that house. Removed the cfls and replaced them with the incandescents that were there when I moved in. Got to the house I'm currently in and swapped te lights again. Ya I'm a cheapskate, but they are all working and I like the light. I like the soft white for my living room, bed room, kitchen and dining. I like the bright daylight for closets, bathrooms, workshops, and laundry rooms.
I like a lot of light and the cfls put off a ton more light than the old incandescents. If u replace a 60 watt incandescent. Replace it with a 120 watt equivalent cfl. Twice the light. A fraction of th hear and energy usage. As for led, the math doesn't add up for a norm household yet. Especially if u do ur entire house with them and u ended up getting a bad batch.


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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5264107 08/20/14 09:58 PM
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To the OP in regards to lack of power available in the coming years. If the EPA and this administration get their wish of shutting down coal fired power plants then power problems will occur during the first hot, or cold spell we have. This includes rolling blackouts and potentially even longer term blackouts. Power utility companies in Texas are aware of the problem, but there's really nothing that they can do about it in the short term.


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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5264252 08/20/14 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: GuidedHunter


Hopefully Guided hunter will be back..... but explain to me how a private company is going to purchase swimming pools from a municipality?

The word is that they are going to first start requiring facilities like public pools to turn off pumps and major equipment during peak hours to prevent black outs.

I guess I got lucky or don't use my CFLs enough as I replaced the whole house 6 years ago, two have burned out since
Anyway, the reason I say don't by the CFL (Curley-Que) lights and the incandescent is that the CFLs are generally no good anyway. Even though CFLs are only like 4 bucks a bulb they only are going to last you about a year before they need replacing.

What happens when you are on the 50,001 hour on those LEDs and it burns out.... your still 100 miles from a store that has a replacement
Conversly, an LED will last you 50,000+ burn hours. So go ahead and skip those and buy an LED. Not to mention, if you put LEDs in the old hunting cabin you won't have the frustration of flipping on the single kitchen light having it blow and realizing there is no replacement for 100 miles.


Any Questions?

Last edited by hoof n wings; 08/20/14 11:38 PM.

Originally Posted by ImTheReasonDovesMourn
I'd ask him if he's pregnant. He missed a s__tload of periods.

Originally Posted by Hancock
I'll take "things that look like a uterus" for $200 Alex.
Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: hoof n wings] #5264427 08/21/14 01:14 AM
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My L-E-D observations.

All of our warning lights on our apparatus used to be strobes, and rotating halogens. Wile sitting idle, not in high idle, AC running, the load manager would kick in and shut down AC, then radio, then everything but headlights and marker lights. Warning lights quit working all the time. Slowly new apparatus gained L-E-D warning lights, now every light on the apparatus is a red or yellow L-E-D and load managers don't kick in ever. They draw less power, plain and simple.

A friend had a flatbed built. He backed in my driveway with the new bed, with red LED tail lights and white LED reverse lights. He asked "what do you think about the reverse lights?" I say, they're not bright enough. He thought the same thing and had the bed manufacuterer swap them out with good ole bulbs. Problem solved.

Traffic boards, warning lights, traffic signals all LED now days. And every one of those are amber, red, yellow, green, no white.

The only type of trailer lights I use now (I have four trailers) are LED, red tail, amber marker. They are simply more reliable and brighter.

We now have an engine with white LED scene lights as opposed to the halogens we used to have and the white LED scene lights are no comparison. They suck!

So here's my take. LEDs in any color than white are awesome and that's all we'll see and all I want to use for my own work. White LEDs just don't do provide the same needed light as other white light options such as halogen, incandescent, flourescent. I have 8' HO flourescents in my fabrication shop, you could about get a tan in there, and there are still times I'd like to have more light for very intricate work. I don't see how white LEDs could ever fill the bill.


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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: FiremanJG] #5264867 08/21/14 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
My L-E-D observations.

All of our warning lights on our apparatus used to be strobes, and rotating halogens. Wile sitting idle, not in high idle, AC running, the load manager would kick in and shut down AC, then radio, then everything but headlights and marker lights. Warning lights quit working all the time. Slowly new apparatus gained L-E-D warning lights, now every light on the apparatus is a red or yellow L-E-D and load managers don't kick in ever. They draw less power, plain and simple.

A friend had a flatbed built. He backed in my driveway with the new bed, with red LED tail lights and white LED reverse lights. He asked "what do you think about the reverse lights?" I say, they're not bright enough. He thought the same thing and had the bed manufacuterer swap them out with good ole bulbs. Problem solved.

Traffic boards, warning lights, traffic signals all LED now days. And every one of those are amber, red, yellow, green, no white.

The only type of trailer lights I use now (I have four trailers) are LED, red tail, amber marker. They are simply more reliable and brighter.

We now have an engine with white LED scene lights as opposed to the halogens we used to have and the white LED scene lights are no comparison. They suck!

So here's my take. LEDs in any color than white are awesome and that's all we'll see and all I want to use for my own work. White LEDs just don't do provide the same needed light as other white light options such as halogen, incandescent, flourescent. I have 8' HO flourescents in my fabrication shop, you could about get a tan in there, and there are still times I'd like to have more light for very intricate work. I don't see how white LEDs could ever fill the bill.



Your results are the same as mine. 12 volt LED lights put out a LOT of visible light, but not very much useable light unless you get one of those expensive light bars.

This is why I am upgrading my reverse lights to HID lights on my car. With tinted windows, LED lights would not give me enough useable light while the HID will give me PLENTY of useable light.


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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5265510 08/21/14 06:13 PM
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The efficiency of LED lighting (usable light produced vs. watts consumed) is many times that of HID or incandescent light sources.. But just as I said above- putting an LED replacement lamp, into a fixture or application originally designed for something else, will yield mediocre results at best..


Daniel
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Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: FiremanJG] #5265891 08/21/14 10:07 PM
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I will agree, I work for a municipality and when we use regular rotary(2) and strobes(4) and turn off the engine, it will drain a battery in 20 minutes- Our new trucks have LED strobes that will run an hour before draining the batteries..... not that I know as I leave the engine running now
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
My L-E-D observations.
All of our warning lights on our apparatus used to be strobes, and rotating halogens. Traffic boards, warning lights, traffic signals all LED now days. And every one of those are amber, red, yellow, green, no white.


Originally Posted by ImTheReasonDovesMourn
I'd ask him if he's pregnant. He missed a s__tload of periods.

Originally Posted by Hancock
I'll take "things that look like a uterus" for $200 Alex.
Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5265896 08/21/14 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: GuidedHunter
Hopefully this thread will die now. I'm gonna go read about hunting stuff.



rofl

Re: Stop buying incandescent and CFL Lights... It's not doing you any good. [Re: GuidedHunter] #5267478 08/22/14 11:23 PM
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Some salesman you are!
Originally Posted By: GuidedHunter


Hopefully this thread will die now. I'm gonna go read about hunting stuff.


Originally Posted by ImTheReasonDovesMourn
I'd ask him if he's pregnant. He missed a s__tload of periods.

Originally Posted by Hancock
I'll take "things that look like a uterus" for $200 Alex.
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